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Home: Dog and Puppies Talk: Dog Show and Championship:
UK or American Standard?





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RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Aug 30, 2003, 1:45 AM

Post #1 of 35 (3144 views)
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UK or American Standard? Can't Post

hello Smile,

just a little curious here. In the M'sian show ring, are the dogs judged based on the UK standard or the American standard?

as far as i know there are some breeds in the 2 diff countries which have different physical attributes..example, in the US, Irish setters are taller than the original Irish Irish setters(hope i don't confuse you here). Another breed that I know of is the GSD. GSD's in the US are more "elegent" and have a more arched back.They're lighter too. The original GSD's in the Germany are heavier and have a straighter back.

Or if you're lucky and have a GSD conforming to the German standard and a european judge?
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lulugurl
ALPHA


Aug 30, 2003, 6:50 AM

Post #2 of 35 (3134 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

HEllo

According to UK. Smile
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RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Aug 30, 2003, 11:37 AM

Post #3 of 35 (3129 views)
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Re: [lulugurl] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanksSmile

good to know that..

if we had an american judge here,will he have a preferance although he still follows the UK standard?
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hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Aug 30, 2003, 11:45 AM

Post #4 of 35 (3128 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

who knows. sometimes judges do get bias :/


regards,
hunter


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Aug 30, 2003, 11:51 AM

Post #5 of 35 (3126 views)
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Re: [hunter] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

that's what I'm thinking....FrownUnsure
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jaz
Ultra ALPHA


Aug 30, 2003, 10:04 PM

Post #6 of 35 (3114 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

They will comply to the standard stuff that a judge need to see and judge, but then again, it's very subjective as it's totally 100% final on thier decision, why the judge chose this dog instead of the other one, only the judge would know... Wink


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Aug 31, 2003, 12:11 AM

Post #7 of 35 (3110 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer, Hunter] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi guys ...

The official "standard" for a breed can differ slightly from country to country, in that different words may be used to describe the dog. Serious show people/breeders can spend hours and have heated arguments over the meaning and intent of the "words" ... and how the words are to be represented in the breed ...

But in most cases the difference in the wording is only slight and does not really account for the "actual differences" we see in the same breed bred in different countries (usually between USA and the rest of the world).

Whether such difference is good or bad for dog breeding is subject of much debate.

The Americans have in particularly "redesigned" many breeds.

In the beginning, Americans were cross breeding European breeds to develop dogs to suit their particular environment, terrain and difference in use. For example, they took the European Secent Hounds and developed a whole range of different hounds like the Coon Hound, the Tick Hound etc ...

I have no gripe with this at all – after all that is how different breeds were first developed.

But of late, maybe in the last 50 years … the primary reasons for changing conformation of dogs in the USA have taken a dramatic turn …

In the last 50 years, the pet industry and the dog showing have become huge businesses. As more and more people show dogs professionally to earn a livelihood … (as with so many things in the USA) … the pressure to win is immense.

So, where once Americans developed and redefined breeds from the “Old Country” to suit practical needs and uses. Today, most changes arise from the desire and need to win in dog shows.

For example: The American version of the Ridgeback is generally finer, more tucked and with more hind angulation … why? Because increased angulation gives the dog a “lively” gait, making the dog more “action” in the show ring … the finer structure with tuck, gives a neater/smarter silhouette.

As long as the Americans were “redesigning” breeds for a purpose or use, then it was okay because these “new” dogs were tested in the field, weaknesses and defects whether structural or cosmetic, showed up during their working life and were quickly eradicated …

But when breeds are redesigned just to win dog shows … the danger of introducing unsoundness increases, and without chance or desire to test the dogs at real work or trial the dog - the unsoundness stays hidden … and we may (some say its already happened) end up with dogs that no longer serve the purpose for which they were originally conceived, developed and bred.

For example: Many experts say the American show Golden Retriever with his thick, long and feathered coat so pretty in a ring, is no longer suited for retrieving. The coat would actually impair retrieving and be a danger to the dog. The American type of RR, with excessive angulation no longer has the stamina and strength required for a RR.

So, when we say American type … we are not so much saying that the Americans have a different official standard or different breed … just that they are breeding a different “style” …

Cheers ...


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Aug 31, 2003, 10:52 AM

Post #8 of 35 (3096 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

hmm..yea..i do agree with you.. the IS's which i mentioned have shoulder problems and as for the GSD's they have more bone/joint problems too. The Americans have a tendency to breed their dogs to be "big & beautiful".

well i guess it's the question of form vs. function (i side with functionTongue)

another thing..the setters were brought over from Ireland during the famine loong time ago. At that time, i don't think many ppl had IS's but those who did, i don't think they bothered abt conformation and all that so i guess they didn't breed the dogs to be taller. But when they started getting interested in conformation and drew up the first standard for the IS, how is it that the standard now for the IS is taller than the first original standard?
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(This post was edited by RealityDreamer on Aug 31, 2003, 11:02 AM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Aug 31, 2003, 11:06 AM

Post #9 of 35 (3094 views)
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Re: [jaz] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smileo0oh..good lar like that
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Aug 31, 2003, 10:51 PM

Post #10 of 35 (3085 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

You asked: "... how is it that the standard now for the IS is taller than the first original standard? ..."

*Hmmm* ... I don't know ...

Will ask an expert and get the answer for you ... Smile ...

Cheers


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Aug 31, 2003, 11:21 PM

Post #11 of 35 (3084 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

okie thanks Smile
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JolinG
Doggyman


Sep 1, 2003, 7:27 AM

Post #12 of 35 (3074 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

wat jaz say its true
judges have their own peference according to their own country standard...and overall soundness n structure of dogs lar..dun care US or Uk standard
the dog must look right


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Sep 1, 2003, 8:37 AM

Post #13 of 35 (3072 views)
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Re: [JolinG,jaz] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

"They will comply to the standard stuff that a judge need to see and judge.." (refering to the UK standard..right Lisa?)

i might have gotten confused there..Unsure

"judges have their own peference according to their own country standard"

anyway, if that's the case, how is he going to judge a bunch of GSD's from Germany? he's going to choose the most "elegent" one with the most curved back?

and would it be fair to the participants? i mean..they follow the UK standard and this guy's from US,probably used to US standard..
,-._,-.
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 9:10 AM

Post #14 of 35 (3069 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

... Smile ... Which is why there are so many fights in Dog Associations all over the world over as to which is the "correct" judge to invite to judge a dog show ...

... A breeder concentrating on UK style GRs will probably be upset if the judge invited is known to have preference for US style GRs or breeds US style GRs ...

And these issues keep dog show people occupied LOL ...


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Sep 1, 2003, 9:33 AM

Post #15 of 35 (3068 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

aah..get your point..Smile

but why don't they just invite judges who follow and judge based on the standard which the association prefers? unless the judge is busy..

hmm..but i guees the rarer breeds are safe..for now...i think.. TongueUnsure
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 9:43 AM

Post #16 of 35 (3067 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
You wrote: "... but why don't they just invite judges who follow and judge based on the standard which the association prefers? ..."

Well, because not all breeders or show people like the same style ... even in Malaysia, there are people showing US and UK style of GRs ... same goes for GSDs etc etc ...

So the whole issue of which judge to invite can become very "political" ...

And that too keep show people occupied ... LOL


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Sep 1, 2003, 9:54 AM

Post #17 of 35 (3066 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

o0oh.. Crazy

but since the follow the UK standard(i guess they invite more UK judges)...shouldn't they too? i mean competition wise, they have a higher chance of winning..

but i guess they have their own reasons to believe which one is their ideal dog.

honestly though..shouldn't the standard be based more on the function and just not looks? i mean if a gsd has such arched back till he can't perform his original duties...what's the point ?Crazy
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 10:02 AM

Post #18 of 35 (3064 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

... LOL ... you really don't want to get me started on the ... Laugh ...

You are right ... official breed standards are supposed to be based on "function" ... well, in fact the reason for having different breeds is based on "function".

But breeders are individuals too ... and each have their own way of interpreting the meaning of "function" and the "standard" ...

What makes it perhaps more dangerous these days is that more and more breeders are breeding to "win dog shows" with less regard to "function" ... and so we are seeing more and more "flashy" dogs that may not be able to "function" as they were once intended ... Your example would fall into this category ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Sep 1, 2003, 10:04 AM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Sep 1, 2003, 10:21 AM

Post #19 of 35 (3060 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

aah...ok

another thing on my mind..since there are flashier dogs that cannot "function", why is the standard based on them anyway?

why isn't the standard based on the functional dogs in the first place? how did the standard start to "change"?

i mean the first standard is probably based on the functional dog many years ago....so how did it change? (something like that IS question)
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 10:34 AM

Post #20 of 35 (3058 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

... I can't say about the IS standard ... I am still waiting for the expert to respond to your query ... Smile

But the official "standards" I am familiar with were drawn up with "function" in mind ...

But as with all things ... standards can be interpreted according to how one chooses to read the words ... and nothing prevents people from breeding various "styles" that do not so obviously breach the official standard ...

I suppose the problem lies in the fact that it's hard to actually prove that a "flashier style" does not serve function ... people can comment, suggest or surmise ... some may even accuse ... but if that so-called flashier style keeps winning at dog shows ... what to do? ...

You see ... if the flashy style did not win - no one would breed that way ...

So in many ways it comes back to the judges, and what judges are looking for and whether the judges actually know what they are supposed to be looking for ... LOL ... And that is also where all the politics that sometimes make dog showing so unpleasant comes into play ...


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Sep 1, 2003, 10:40 AM

Post #21 of 35 (3056 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

aah(seems to be the word of the day Tongue)...ok..

so its basically how the judges interpret the standard?

but what abt the more obvious "changes" like the height of a certain standard?
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 10:53 AM

Post #22 of 35 (3055 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some standards (if I remember correctly) specify height very precisely ... and breeders have to conform ...

But many (or most) standards do not set a "fixed" height ... many standards use the word "recommended" or "desired" height ... which gives room for interpretation ...

Although the RR standard recommends the height of 27" for males ... a 28" or even 29" dog may not be penalised if his overall conformation is proportionate ...

And there is or seems to be a general trend for some medium & large breeds to be growing taller and bigger because in a show line-up ... the bigger/taller dog stands out more and catches the judge's eye ...

For example ... a dog conforming to the size required by the standard - may end up looking small in a line up of bigger dogs ... and maybe not so eye catching ...


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Sep 1, 2003, 10:57 AM

Post #23 of 35 (3054 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

o0oh...ok..

didn't know the allowance for the height was as much as 2 inches or so..Crazy

anyway,thanks for taking the time to answer so many of my questionsSmile

no more questions...for now.. TongueSmileWink
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 11:05 AM

Post #24 of 35 (3053 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

... no problems ...
time for bed now ... night night ...
Smile


jaz
Ultra ALPHA


Sep 1, 2003, 4:43 PM

Post #25 of 35 (3050 views)
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Re: [JolinG] UK or American Standard? [In reply to] Can't Post

But too bad that they can't do it like our piano examination whereby the examiner can actually write comments on every pieces we play during the exam ya... I think that would be good and helpful so that we can learn from our mistake and improve... no matter ppl say fair or not fair the judging is, these ppl have to sit through a very tough exam to qualify as judges... I am sure thier imput on thier decision will be valueble to ppl especially like myself. Smile

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