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physical punishments





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makrawl
Canine Addict


May 17, 2003, 9:18 AM

Post #1 of 57 (2933 views)
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well guys, i went to this latest gathering and met lots of ppl. then i met Ms. Lewis from US. my dog was barking mad at her dogs. so "spontaniously" i hit his mouth (gently, and i always do that) and commanded him to stop that. when Ms. Lewis saw what i did to my dogs, she advised me not to do so and still i remember the "key word"that she mentioned. she told me that "i won't hit someone's mouth if he said something that i don't like?" her statement was like a bell that hit right on my heart and i really feel there is a very big difference between the East and West ppl on the methods to train their dogs. and she was also felt very surprise that there are so many ppl hitting their dogs here (although we love them).

i grown up in a very typical chinese family and it is a very normal scene to see children being punished physically by cane or ear pinching (of course these are not those extreme cases that cause injuries). i, myself even got "beaten up" quite often as i was a naughty one. maybe this is a social "thing" that really growing deep into our society and it has becomes a norm. i was so surprised that Ms. Lewis is able to train her Poms so well without the "cane part". and i really wish to learn from ppl like her on how to train a dog with "cane free" on the behaviour part. (i only punish them when they did something wrong, punishment is never use during training )

so may i know that is there any information, sources, books or whatever that teach a dog owner to train their dogs in a "physical punishement free" way? or is there any trainer who is willing to share this "new" method (for me it is new) with us? or is there any course. but i think i really need some good books on that. i know that we can't do advertising here but i think this is very important to let us know which source is the best to make both the dog and the owner's life more easy and happy. actually i've tried some tricks that i've learned from the books some works but some are not. like the method that Ms. Lewis taught me on how to discourage my "sakai" dog from barking mad is never taught in my books. i'm very sure these comes from experience but i do need advise and books to lead me to the right path.

one more thing, i'm working daily and so i can't stay at home and teaching them all them time. i'm sure most of u is also working right? what i (we) need is a very effective and easy to pick up by the doggies command. so, can we do that without physicall punishment? (as i can't catch them right on time every time they do the wrong thing like miss place on the -poo poo, and pee pee, pull down the clothes that hang up to dry or swallow dirts from the garden, digging holes, chewing mats etc.) what can we do?

i'm looking out for a solution here. so, what do u think??

Mak


(This post was edited by makrawl on May 17, 2003, 9:28 AM)


cshellz
Ultra ALPHA


May 17, 2003, 5:55 PM

Post #2 of 57 (2921 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mak,

I agree with you that in our country there are many ppl who resort to physical punishment when trying to train their dogs. I've seen ppl who kick their dogs when their dogs come running to them to play, ppl who hit their dog so hard that they cry, also ppl who use cane on their dogs.

But like you, i do believe that there's a different way to instill discipline. When I was studying in Aust, I always noticed that the ppl there talked to their dogs very politely and gently...and even talk to their kids like they were adults! No threats, no raising voices, no raising hands...(well I'm sure there are cases of it but I have not seen it in public before). And guess what? The dogs are very obedient!! In each supermarket you go to you'll see dogs sitting and waiting patiently for their owners outside of the supermarket. And they aren't even on the leash. You can go there and pat them or play with them but they will only move when their owner comes out! They are also everywhere in the sidewalk cafes...sitting obediently next to the owner's chair or on the owner's lap and not on leash too.

I think seeing them like that has taught me a thing or two. Although I don't hit my dog, I used to pat him lightly on hit bum and say "NO" whenever he does something wrong. But now I've learnt to 'talk' to my dog a bit more and instead of hitting him, I only give him a more stern warning and am using rolled newspaper to make noise on my hand or furniture to train him...esp when I see him biting stuff. But like u said, it would be really good if we could get more input about the 'no physical' way of punishing and disciplining a dog!


mackmack
Doggyman


May 18, 2003, 1:38 PM

Post #3 of 57 (2912 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

Mak,

i gotto admit that ... once a while, I did "slap" on accidentally. But never meant to use the abusive way to "train" him. Maybe GR is a lot easier to train, the way i used was "educate" him all the time, i'll hav him sit infront of me, look at me, and listen to me. then i'll start my lesson such as :"cannot do this. it's not right. do no more in future, understand??" probably keep repeating until he gimme the look of "understood" then i will say "OK", and Mack would gimme his HANDS, one by one and i hav to hit them a bit. the whole "teaching" is like after lesson and punishment, then he would be "released". the funny thing was....if he's not the culprit or he thinks he did nothing wrong, ah-ah..... he won't follow all these steps mentioned above. even if he would sit down in front of me, he would refused to look at me, not to mention let me teach him a lesson!Crazy

Well...well...well....that's just indoor "manner's" lesson. Back to "normal" obedient training, I use the Gentle Leader Collar, some ppl call it head collar, etc. It works!! I rented the training video tape from the vet (when i was in michigan) and follow the instructions. Although my way wasn't professional enough, but still managed to train without physical punishment on . Also, heard that there's a so called training leash too.

Afterall, if ur dogs are human-oriented, most likely they are eaiser to handle and to train. coz they are SMART.Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


KEIDOU
Member


May 19, 2003, 6:04 AM

Post #4 of 57 (2902 views)
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Re: [mackmack] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

HAI!

CAN GET THE gentle leader collar at many pet shop? do u heard of no-bark collar?i hope cant buy a suitable collar for my frijol,m.s.
TongueKEIDOUTongue
ALWIZ BE NAUGHTY!
BE FUNNY
BE NAIVE

.'"'..
'
( '0' )_!)
' '
LL_ *_J


mackmack
Doggyman


May 19, 2003, 12:58 PM

Post #5 of 57 (2895 views)
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Re: [KEIDOU] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

KEIDOU

I'm now staying in US. The gentle leader collar and the "no-bark" collar could be found in most pet-stores here, at least from PetSmart and PetCo. Sharper Image also selling some great doggie's accessories but are more expensive.
Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


TohCS
Enthusiast


May 19, 2003, 5:07 PM

Post #6 of 57 (2892 views)
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Re: [KEIDOU] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

I got my Gentle Leader from .................. (advertising contents deleted)

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by Admin on May 20, 2003, 7:24 AM)


doodle
ALPHA


May 19, 2003, 5:24 PM

Post #7 of 57 (2888 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi makrawl,
Sometimes when my dog misbehave, it really makes me feel so mad that I feel like throwing my tantrum on him. But it's not fair for him as he doesn't even understand what he has done wrong. As for he is still an infant that he even needs to learn to bark. (He still don't know how to bark)
Well, I have come across alot of books from Mid Valley MPH. One is quite good and it has alot of photos to show us how to do it. I think it is quite good and cost about RM80+ but I can't remember it's title. However, there's alot of book you can pick from.
My dog is basset hound and it is known for it's stubborness. It is really really stubborn but no doubt it is smart, it just refuse to listen to me. Everyone calls it a monster.
I really envy those dogs that could just understand what the owners want them to do. Like sitting outside the cafe and wait for them. The loyalty shown could bring tears to my eyes. I do respect the patience and love given by the owner to train the dogs to do that.
*salute


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 19, 2003, 8:00 PM

Post #8 of 57 (2880 views)
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Re: [mackmack] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah, u've reminded me something. video tape is a very good learning material. but i wonder if is there any out there in Malaysia? does anyone know if there is any source/s?

actually i've spend hundreds on books and still i can't find the "best" so far as all are just telling the "common and overall the same" thing. books from west would say "don't hit the dog" while books from Japan say "hit the bum (not very hard, just enough to stop them) with hands when necessary". that's why i feel a bit lost as i don't know which to follow.

i'll go and search for more books later and see what can i get.

actually i was planning to bring them for training (MKA courses) but i can't tear my self away. i'm having my orchestra practice on the same day and the time of these two program just can't match up.Unsure

by the way, does this MKA at Tmn Tun has any "doggies library?"


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 19, 2003, 8:04 PM

Post #9 of 57 (2879 views)
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Re: [TohCS] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

can u tell me more about this gentle leader? and how does it look like and how it works?

tq


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 19, 2003, 8:16 PM

Post #10 of 57 (2877 views)
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Re: [cshellz] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah, i did talk to my dogs and something funny always happen. first, they'll be very very happy when i talk to them. second, they'll come over and lie on my foot or climb up. third, they'll jump up and down and do lots of silly act that really amuse me, forth (ocassionally), my mother heard that and she'll ask me " u "siau" already ah? talking to dogs?!" kakaka.

but talking wth them really helps.


TohCS
Enthusiast


May 19, 2003, 8:36 PM

Post #11 of 57 (2871 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

A GL (Gentle Leader) has two hoop ie the Nose and the Neck . It is nylon. It look almost like a horse harness (but it is nylon and soft) .
It works on the concept that wherever the nose goes the dog goes. When a dog tries to pull ahead it's nose and head will turn back to look at you, making it virtually impossible for the dog to pull. It works like a mother dog holding on a puppys muzzle . As for the neck strap pressure is put on the back of the dogs neck and not front (unlike traditional collars and thus prevents choking).
It is different from a Halti but more or less same concept. Some ppl prefer halti some prefer GL. To me I find GL less complicating cause only have 2 straps. After getting the GL even if there is a CAT or another DOG ahead your dog will not be able to pull you ahead with it . Walking with your dog will be a breeze. No Jerk will be needed at all.

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by Admin on May 20, 2003, 7:34 AM)


alywang
New User

May 19, 2003, 8:45 PM

Post #12 of 57 (2869 views)
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hey mak,

Kudos on being open-minded about not using physical punishment on your dog.

I used to have the same problem with my dog. But i guessed quite correctly that she was not used to being around other dogs and strangers. She got real nervous and fretful. I tried to bring her out more often and socialise. By and by, she got more confident, and was less threatened by the unfamiliar surroundings and scents. Especially if I constantly reasurre her by giving her a pat, whenever she looked she was fretting.

I found that giving treats was a more effective way of training than punishment. It need not be doggy tidbits, even a playful tug-of-war or giving the dog its favorite toy when it does something right, is good enough. When my pet does something wrong like chewing the furniture or missing its potty, i will shout "no", with a firm and stern voice. When it does remember to go to the toilet, i will praise her like "good girl" in a higher pitch tone, plus a ruffle on its head. Soon enough, she learnt that my pitch of voice indicates if i am pleased or displeased.

The main thing to remember is consistency in your training. You'll be surprised how quickly your dog can learn. It is also a good idea to start the training at the on-set. Cos, once the dog develops a habit of something, it may take longer to un-learn. If you do not have the time to train your dog, perhaps you can consider sending it to an obedient school. I'm sure there are such services in your neighbourhood?

aly


mackmack
Doggyman


May 19, 2003, 9:13 PM

Post #13 of 57 (2866 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

PetSmart.com

Gentle Leader Training Collar by Premier Pet
The Gentle Leader Headcollar works by putting light pressure on your dog's muzzle and at the back of the neck; replicating the way a "pack leader" gently yet firmly grasps a subordinate's muzzle in his mouth. This sends a clear signal to the dog that YOU are the leader. Along with using positive reinforcement and small food rewards, many dog lovers find they're able to significantly alter their dog's undesirable behavior in a very short time. The Gentle Leader can help you teach your dog to sit, as well as prevent jumping and lunging or tugging during walks.
Because the Gentle Leader is different from any other training collars you may have previously used, it's important to read and follow the complete instructions that are included.

http://www.petsmart.com/.../product_17756.shtml


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


snoopydog
Enthusiast

May 20, 2003, 12:40 AM

Post #14 of 57 (2856 views)
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Hi makrawl,

Recently, I read a book called "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller which talks about using Positive Reinforcement to train your dog. The author owns a dog that excelled in obedience and won many titles. She said something in her book which made so much sense to me. Having subjected her dog to physical punishment for some years, one day, her dog just refused to train and went into hiding everytime she took out the training equipment. Any owner would be heart-broken to see that, right? UnsureSo, she realised that the years of physical punishment had taken a toll on her dogs and she felt that she had betrayed her dogs. The author finally realised that it was not worth breaking the trust between her and her beloved dog, over a few ribbons and medals. From then on, she adopted the positive training method which did not involve any pain or physical punishment. It's also relatively stress free for both dogs and owner. No need to yell, no need to scream. In fact, MKA gave a short introduction on this same topic last Saturday, which was very, very enlightening SmileSmile.

So, you may want to read the book I mentioned. I bought mine from MPH.

Good luck Smile.


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 20, 2003, 1:48 AM

Post #15 of 57 (2849 views)
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Re: [all] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks. it was a very very clear info from u all. i'll look for the shop and get the leash ASAP.

thanks u guys are so nice.Angelic


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 20, 2003, 1:50 AM

Post #16 of 57 (2848 views)
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wow. that should be a great book that all i need. by the way, is the book only telling the "story" that u've mention or it is a book to train dogs? which MPH? midvalley?


TohCS
Enthusiast


May 20, 2003, 6:46 AM

Post #17 of 57 (2845 views)
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It is a book that covers the principal of positive training and also lots and lots of training tips on how to train your dog in various areas such as obedience and tricks . A great book. Kinokuniya also have stock of that book.

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 20, 2003, 5:16 PM

Post #18 of 57 (2829 views)
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oh. i see. ok then, i'll search for it within this month. tq very much.

talking about this training, i still remember that when i was young, i met a fella that train his dog using a cane?! i was very shocked as when he was teaching the dog on how to shake hands, the fella will use a cane and hit the front paws till the dog couldn't stand it and lift the paw up. and he never lift up the the dog's paw before and the dog never know what is "shake hands". sigh... what a "tragic scene". and it was a pure breed too(he bought for about rm1000). how could they do it.


mackmack
Doggyman


May 20, 2003, 6:40 PM

Post #19 of 57 (2823 views)
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regarding books of training,
I would suggest u to go with those books for particular breed. for myself, i bought the book that show how to train a golden retriever, and when i read about training for other types of breed, i found that the approaches are different when dealing with different temperament of breeds. they might not be a huge variation, but somehow.... we need to pay more attention to certain extend.
Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 21, 2003, 12:09 AM

Post #20 of 57 (2810 views)
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Re: [mackmack] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

actually i bought a book that only talks about English cocker spaniel and it gives me some usefull information on the dogs but training was not mention in the book. i can only find books of training for "all" but non as what u've mentioned. maybe i'll go and look for it again.


mackmack
Doggyman


May 21, 2003, 12:13 AM

Post #21 of 57 (2809 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not search for the materials from online bookstore?
how about barnes and noble? amazon.com?


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


TohCS
Enthusiast


May 22, 2003, 8:34 PM

Post #22 of 57 (2781 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

Go over to MPH, Megamall. I saw lots of training books for various breeds. Not sure if there is one for Eng Cocker . Pat Miller's book is also found there :-) . Good luck!

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


makrawl
Canine Addict


May 25, 2003, 9:11 AM

Post #23 of 57 (2759 views)
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Re: [TohCS] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

i found a book at MPH shah alam. it is quite informative and i'm still reading it.

by the way, i've bought 2 gentle leaders from the store that u've mention. the owner was very curious about how i got to know this product (i think it is still new here?!) coz when i went in to the store, i go straight for the things. i told him that i was recomended by a friend from the net and he was very impressed on that. i think u can go and ask the owner to give u a free meal! Laugh

of course, my two little fella are not happy about it at all. they keep on pushing the things off but they are just making themsleves tired only .Wink i've tried it out while puting them on the leash. the effect was great. no jerking nor hard pulling. when they pull, they just turn back to me and i didn't even use any "super power" like last time. of course again, they give me a very very frust look. Sly well, i'm the winner this time huh?! kekeke.

thanks a lot, u r so great.


(This post was edited by makrawl on May 25, 2003, 9:18 AM)


TohCS
Enthusiast


May 26, 2003, 3:50 AM

Post #24 of 57 (2751 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mackrawl,

It will take a little while before the dogs adjust to the GL. Just remember don't jerk on the leash when using the GL.
Hee hee I doubt the shop guy knows who I am. I only when there twice so far . Some people even think I am advertising for the shop when I mention this place.Laugh.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Irrespective whether you been there once or never, advertising contents is advertising contents and will be deleted. Posting of Petshop Name and address is not appropriate as it is considered as advertising for them. Please learn to respect the terms of this forum.

- Admin

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway I am glad you find the GL helpfull.Wink

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by Admin on May 28, 2003, 7:09 AM)


bomberZ
Member


May 28, 2003, 3:51 AM

Post #25 of 57 (2728 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to] Can't Post

hi makrawl,



can u please email me the store name and location where i can get the gentle-leader leash.

u can email me at



thanks a lot

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