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PSY
K9 Kaki

Aug 13, 2005, 5:54 AM

Post #26 of 47 (1947 views)
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Re: [minglmy] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the infor, I am very familiar with Dobs but I think you have taken a wrong turn somewhere. The subject in hand is if one trains one dog to be able to pass for CGC to be able to get your dog license as per Subang new ruling, then you have to retrain to be a watch dog is just crazy.

Oh, by the way you need not get a working dog etc to be a guard dog you can litterally get one from a show line, it is how you train it. The challenge is greater the other way around. Only thing that is impossible is making a dog into a full biting dog when it is not.

minglmy
Puppycom Veteran

Aug 13, 2005, 6:52 AM

Post #27 of 47 (1935 views)
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Re: [PSY] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,

Well, I have definitely not taken any wrong turn anywhere for my reply was a direct reply to your post refering to " I do strongly feel everyone should think about this "obedience thing" before saying it is a good thing."

also on "I have a dob and now I have a problem, it does not go on guard mode anymore. She will bark when certain people suspicious walk pass but if that person approach her she would just stop and 'sus' the person out and very likely becomes friend so what on earth for having a doberman? "

One hand, you have yr opinion and I have mine... just that our opinion does not cross at the junction that's all. A box also have 4 sides to look at so is a situation when ppl implement on the CGC/Obedience training. There bound to be ppl who agrees to the CGC test and also some who doesn't either way, for me i see it as having less aggressive dogs around town is better for the community.

On the other hand, what is "going to" implement have lots of loop holes too so in time I'm sure things like these will be iron out.

Crazy or not... its a sooner or later thing.FYI, watch dog n guard dog is different. I have personally never heard of anyone teaching/training a watch dog. Maybe you would like to share with us how to train a watch dog.

Then I guess ur one of those who loves challenges as you got a friendly dobes and is training the dog to be a "guard" dog that is not in his temprement at all. Good luck and I hope you enjoy the training and I hope once u done it succesfully you will be able ot share the training tips with the rest of us who might like to go with the challenge too.

cheers,
minglmy

Gus-Gus
Canine Addict

Aug 13, 2005, 10:15 AM

Post #28 of 47 (1925 views)
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Re: [PSY] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

I wanted to add a few points to this post.

PSY - While I understand your concern about your doberman being too friendly to stangers, do not underestimate your dog's loyalty to you in the face of adversity. Your dog may seem friendly to all people to you but if someone who is apparently a friend were to draw up in a van in the middle of the night and try and break in, I doubt if your dog will just sit still and watch. Dogs understand vibes and will sense when a "friend" is not acting in a "friendly" way. As for your friend's doberman that did not react when the family was robbed, I would like to clarify - robbed or burgled? A robbery is when the thief is violent and threatens the victim(s). A burglary is when there is a break-in but no direct confrontation between the thief and the victim(s). In either instance, it is possible for the dog to have been drugged to make it compliant and unable to respond.

Too many people expect their dogs to be on the frontline of security and place their dogs in jeopardy unnecessarily. No one who is truly security conscious would let their guard dog be a position to be rendered useless. A potential intruder can easily walk past a house and poison/ dope a dog with tainted meat, wait for the drug to work then enter the house silently. It is far more effective if the dog is kept indoors, safe from harm but able to alert the household if they hear something.

I would like to mention that all because a dog is obedient and well-socialised with humans it doesn't mean it's instincts as a dog are dormant. Dogs have a natural instinct to guard and protect their territory and their family. A dog that is normally docile will not necessarily remain so if they felt their family was being threatened. I know this personal experience. My GSD was friendly and sociable with my family - he tolerated rough handling and was generally obedient. But if anyone of them shouted at me or made gestures that he interpreted as being hostile or physically threatening to me, he would get come (from where ever he was in the house), place himself between the person and me crouch his body and growl, heckles raised. He would remain in that stance until that person walked away or adjusted their body language to something less threatening. Within minutes, he will have returned to his friendly self with that family member. He was never trained as a guard dog or a protection dog but he was taught basic obedience.

My dogs (the various breeds I have had over the years) have all barked at people at the door, whether they are total strangers or visitors who have come before. When the visitors are at the door, my dogs would bark at them but once they are allowed in by a family member, the dogs would be perfectly friendly until the next time when the visitor is again outside the door. My dogs have never let a visitor come in unless they are let in by us no matter how many times they may have visited. This behaviour has been displayed by all my dogs whether they were show dogs, schutzhund-trained or pets.

There appears to be a total misunderstanding about the purpose of the Canine Good Citizen course. It is not to make a dog docile or remove it's protective instinct. It's purpose is to ensure that a dog is controllable by it's owner, handle-able and most importantly, able to understand basic commands. It is also to ensure that dog owners know how to handle their dogs and most importantly - that the dog is accustomed to receiving and responding to commands. This is something ALL dogs should know whatever their purpose. The unfortunate thing is that many dog owners don't know/ care about the importance of any training. A dog may be strictly a pet but even a pet will attack if a situation arises. Whatever the circumstances leading to a dog attacking someone, a dog that is trained with basic obedience can be brought under control more easily because they are more accustomed to being given commands and responding.

What concerns me about the Canine Good Citizen course is how this would be handled. Who goes for the training with the dog? What is there to compel dog owners to go with their dogs rather than sending the maid or someone else? I sincerely doubt if the "boss" would allow the maid to discipline the dog when they don't even give the maid any authority over the children when they are badly behaved. How is the dog to obey the handler at training when the dog knows that the handler has no real authority at home???

Like a lot of "great Malaysian ideas", this one is flawed and needs a lot more thinking through before being implemented. I suspect this, like all those other "great ideas" will be implemented then withdrawn because there are too many problems to maintain the programme.

The idea for Canine Good Citizen is good but don't confuse poor programme implementation and management with CGC being a bad idea.

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Mahatma Ghandi.

PSY
K9 Kaki

Aug 13, 2005, 7:39 PM

Post #29 of 47 (1905 views)
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Re: [minglmy] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for your response, appreciate your thoughts and views. A watch dog to me is one that would bark when starngers approach the house and would not entertain a friendly approach through the gate. A guard dog is one that would attack, may bark or it may not but certainly growl.

To make a well tempered dog aggressive or to become a guard dog, all you need to do is if you can hit it long enough whereby it has to protect itself it will be a good guard dog. However changing a dog back is another story to apoint it is impossible. My idea and definition of a watch and guard dog.

Again, thanks for your views.

PSY
K9 Kaki

Aug 13, 2005, 7:49 PM

Post #30 of 47 (1890 views)
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Re: [Gus-Gus] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks value your input, my point is it has happen to me, a burly indian chap walked into my house at 8:30 am everyone was home and my dob just sat and watch (well a watch dog I suppose) and not do anything. She does charges to the gate when people approach but this time nothing. I do assume the guy actually made friends with her when everyone is at work hence my question earlier.

Anyway, the guy left when we cursed at him but he has already taken my sisters purse under his shirt and I did not notice it for I would have him. So whatever one's expectation is or not, you just cannot afford to wait for the acid test and say "my dog is a great watch dog".

Gus-Gus
Canine Addict

Aug 13, 2005, 10:38 PM

Post #31 of 47 (1880 views)
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Re: [PSY] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

To make a well tempered dog aggressive or to become a guard dog, all you need to do is if you can hit it long enough whereby it has to protect itself it will be a good guard dog.

I'd like to clarify your point here. Do you mean to say that to make your dog a guard dog you hit it continually?

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Mahatma Ghandi.

PSY
K9 Kaki

Aug 14, 2005, 4:22 AM

Post #32 of 47 (1872 views)
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Re: [Gus-Gus] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hit means you agitate the dog until it retaliates not hit until to a point it is abuse.

Gus-Gus
Canine Addict

Aug 14, 2005, 6:39 AM

Post #33 of 47 (1864 views)
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Re: [PSY] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hitting your dog for no reason that he can fathom IS abuse. It is a shocking and disgusting way to treat your dog. That is not the way to train a dog to be a watch dog and it is certainly not any acceptable method taught by any reputable dog trainer.

I don't know how you came by that idea that that is how a dog is trained to be a guard dog. That is the way to make a dog psychotic, unpredictable and definitely dangerous to others. Hitting your dog for no reason other than to make it retaliate is called TORMENTING your dog. It will make your dog scared of humans. No wonder when a big Indian man walked up to your gate your dog just sat there and watched. Undoubtedly, your dog thought it safer to stay out of his way than to get in his way and make himself the target of a beating - either from him or from you. Your dog has no idea what you want from him since you hit him without reason.

Your dog is not friendly or docile - it is nervous and scared. Scared and nervous dogs are dangerous because they will react from fear. That fear is what will one day make your dog attack someone without provocation. Your dog will never bite someone to protect you. It is far more likely to "snap" mentally and bite someone whom the dog views as an easy target to vent his fear on -which is usually a child. The killer instinct in the dog makes it able to assess the feeblest, the weakest and the least able to protect themselves. One move that the dog views as being threatening (usually the wave of an arm since that is the prelude to being hit) and your dog will do what he has to do to protect himself.

I have been involved with dog training all my life and I have never come across such a cock-eyed way of thinking. No wonder you're not keen on CGC - the way you treat your dog, you'd be found out and probably arrested and tried in court for animal abuse.

ANY dog has a natural instinct to want to guard and protect those who love them and that the dog loves back. Your dog may well prefer you dead since the way you treat him has nothing to do with love. Consider this - what incentive does your dog have to guard and protect you when you hit him for no reason? If you were dead, the beatings would end.

I had no thought before in favour or against CGC but after this unbelieveable insight into your insane thinking, I think it should introduced to every municipality. Furthermore, it should be included in the school syllabus in Malaysian school to teach Malaysian children what is the proper way to behave toward dogs and what is cruelty so that they can report people like you who clearly have no idea.

PSY, I started my participation in this thread because I though the other participants might have misunderstood you but I realise now I was mistaken - you have no idea what you're talking about. YOU need to attend a course on how to treat your dog.

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Mahatma Ghandi.

(This post was edited by Gus-Gus on Aug 14, 2005, 6:44 AM)

PSY
K9 Kaki

Aug 14, 2005, 7:25 AM

Post #34 of 47 (1850 views)
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Re: [Gus-Gus] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Nevermind, you are very likely to be correct and I probably need to refer to an expert when it comes to dogs, thanks for your time, oh , do check out some write up on schuus training.

PSY
K9 Kaki

Aug 15, 2005, 1:28 AM

Post #35 of 47 (1838 views)
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Re: [Gus-Gus] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just like to add to my earlier reply, please note my 10th August thread whereby I mentioned I have a problem so your views plus offence certainly do not help, (you know "shut down" must have experience this since your are a dog trainer) try reading and understanding before you come over strongly with your views.

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Aug 15, 2005, 2:48 AM

Post #36 of 47 (1836 views)
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Re: [Gus-Gus] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

" I don't know how you came by that idea that that is how a dog is trained to be a guard dog. That is the way to make a dog psychotic, unpredictable and definitely dangerous to others. Hitting your dog for no reason other than to make it retaliate is called TORMENTING your dog."

I do not agree that that method would be suitable..."hitting for no reason" but the reason here is to teach the dog that he can be in danger and it is to condition him that in real life, he will get hit by intruders. Don't tell me a robber would not try to hit the dog if he were to be attacked. If you're lucky,he is unarmed & only has his fists.

In general, nervous & scared dogs will obviously react in fear BUT strong nerved,confident,civil & sound temperament dogs will retaliate simply because they are defensive. A nervous & scared dog have problems discriminating & hv very low thresholds. What is harmless to us may seem a huge deal to him. That I am sure u noe.

Now,definition of a GOOD PERSONAL PROTECTION DOG. He should not react without a 3rd party doing so first and will protect the owner no matter what even if it means biting the person to do so. So yes,a dog will bite to protect. For this he needs to be extremely confident with very stable nerves & very clear in the head. During training,they do hit the dog but not for him to retaliate because he has already reacted to the 3rd party. By the time they hit the dog,he is already on the person's arm. the hitting as I hv mentioned before is to condition him.

"ANY dog has a natural instinct to want to guard and protect those who love them and that the dog loves back." I used to have that dream till I got involved with working dogs. I can surely tell u that if that is your way of telling how much your dogs love you,then 90% of the dogs in this country don't love their owners very much. Is that true? No. It simply means that they have weak nerves. When push comes to shove,unless your dog is trained & has suitable genetics,self preservation comes first.

Anyway,I hv gone way off course. I do not support hitting dogs for no reason but just to explain what "hitting a dog" is for when training a protection dog.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Aug 15, 2005, 3:16 AM

Post #37 of 47 (1833 views)
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Re: [Gus-Gus] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

"I would like to clarify - robbed or burgled? A robbery is when the thief is violent and threatens the victim(s). A burglary is when there is a break-in but no direct confrontation between the thief and the victim(s). "

Either way, a good guard dog should react. IMO,bitten any intruder.

"A potential intruder can easily walk past a house and poison/ dope a dog with tainted meat, wait for the drug to work then enter the house silently". Good guard dogs are poison proofed.

" My GSD was friendly and sociable with my family - he tolerated rough handling and was generally obedient. But if anyone of them shouted at me or made gestures that he interpreted as being hostile or physically threatening to me, he would get come (from where ever he was in the house), place himself between the person and me crouch his body and growl, heckles raised."

I agree,most dogs do have that natural instinct. It is just that the divide between working line & show line is so wide. Just because your dog is a rott,gsd,dobe,malinois,boxer does not equate to a good guard dog. Most dogs react to smth that is strange/threatening,just that maybe that dobe is just plain friendly,the gene/instinct to be defensive/civil was diluted.

Hackles raised-that is the most obvious sign that the dog is insecure,therefore needs to raise his hackles to look bigger in order to intimidate the threat.

"My dogs (the various breeds I have had over the years) have all barked at people at the door, whether they are total strangers or visitors who have come before." Is that your definition of watch dog..or guard dog?

"My dogs have never let a visitor come in unless they are let in by us no matter how many times they may have visited. This behaviour has been displayed by all my dogs whether they were show dogs, schutzhund-trained or pets."

Let me clarify this. Schutzhund dogs are NOT protection dogs. Schutzhund is a sport where the environment is controlled. Protection is real life where everything is unpredictable. Also,some SchH dogs have such a high threshold u can literally jump in,break into the hse n maybe make friends with the dog or heck bring the dog with u . A good guard dog would not let u step into his home.

"There appears to be a total misunderstanding about the purpose of the Canine Good Citizen course. It is not to make a dog docile or remove it's protective instinct. It's purpose is to ensure that a dog is controllable by it's owner, handle-able and most importantly, able to understand basic commands. It is also to ensure that dog owners know how to handle their dogs and most importantly - that the dog is accustomed to receiving and responding to commands. This is something ALL dogs should know whatever their purpose. The unfortunate thing is that many dog owners don't know/ care about the importance of any training."

That I 100% agree. To own a dog,it is the owners responsibility to control the dog no matter the circumstance. But there are nervous/difficult dogs around but for this I do not blame the owners if they have tried & made an effort.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Aug 15, 2005, 3:26 AM

Post #38 of 47 (1832 views)
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Re: [PSY] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

"you need not get a working dog etc to be a guard dog you can litterally get one from a show line, it is how you train it. The challenge is greater the other way around. Only thing that is impossible is making a dog into a full biting dog when it is not."

Very well said,though I have made the comment abt the divide in an earlier post,it is what the dog is made of that matters. If you can get a stable,strong nerved,clear in the head,civil dog frm show lines,then he can definitely be a protection dog. It is only that working lines are preferred because the chances of getting a dog like that is higher than getting one frm showlines.

Also, a good guard dog to me is 1 that stops at nth to defend his owner,biting included.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Aug 15, 2005, 3:49 AM

Post #39 of 47 (1826 views)
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Re: [PSY] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

PSY,
That is not the way GOOD guard dogs are trained...that is unfortunately how most of the guard dogs are trianed though.
Also your comment on your dobe, I am afraid the "divide between working line & showline" reality applies here.
The other thing I want to add abt show line vs working line is that IF your dogs are purely from american lines where there is no working titles needed in order to breed,then chances are lower to get a good PP prospect. The German show lines however do need a minimum requirement of a Sch 1 title if they want to breed tht particular dog & if I am not mistaken show them at a higher level as well.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Aug 15, 2005, 4:38 AM

Post #40 of 47 (1819 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith,PSY] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

MKA is only the certifying body. Training can be done privately. Also,there's already so much "hanky-panky" going on in the dog world or heck M'sia..This is just another on the list.

Joe,

*Apparently* pups are exempted.

I also worry abt my dog. He will definitely react to the umbrella...but I guess it might help with lots of conditioning.

To me,the CGC is a better alternative than simply banning dogs.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

PSY
K9 Kaki

Aug 15, 2005, 5:40 AM

Post #41 of 47 (1806 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank-you for your views at least now I know I am not totally daft about dogs, a little maybe.

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Aug 15, 2005, 5:51 AM

Post #42 of 47 (1799 views)
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Re: [chrisong] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tht's 1 difference between a well bred & trained guard dog and a nervous fearful dog.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Aug 15, 2005, 6:38 PM

Post #43 of 47 (1786 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

My dog should protect my house and my family, especially when I am out for work. If he would make friends with any Tom, Dick and Harry then what is the point in having a guard dog? If he takes food from them, no use either.

I don�t like that this new rule is made to support and protect thief and robber instead of family and home.

I have nothing against putting some pressure on dog owners to be more responsible, to be able to control the dog and to know about the breed they own.

e.g. I can walk with my dog thru a crowd, as we have done in Bangsar, without having to worry about my dog, even if people start screaming.

However, the moment anyone tries to touch me, that is a different story and that is what I love about my dog.

I know that I am taking a risk with that, but I need that my dog protects the house and that means that I am fully responsible for any attack on a stranger. I can live with that, actually, I sleep much better at night.BTW, my dog would bark and growl and would try to intimidate any intruder to make him to retreat. If nothing works then, and only then, it might attack and bite.

leecy
Ultra ALPHA

Aug 22, 2005, 10:46 PM

Post #44 of 47 (1739 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

RealityDreamer

I have gone through all ur postings in this thread, & sincerely i really admire you, both your knowledge & firm standing. (sorry my eng not that good as im still a young learner.)

when i get into this forum i noticed & feel very uncomfortable when there are ppl, many of them indeed who just PICK UP certain words posted by ppl & tend to criticise until out of topic & even conclude others.

some feel that they know EVERYTHING & speak as if they are very sure while they are not. there are ppl who just wish to have their say but NEVER listen to what others say.

well i think im out of topic here but just wish to express my feeling here that im glad there are still ppl like u. i always believe although we have different point of views, we can discuss thus we learn. i discourage ppl to view those who oppose their views to be their enemy.

in short, i wish there are more positive discussions like urs which have a clear standing, not PERSONAL attacks used by certain group of ppl.

last but not least, may i know more abt you? besides this training thingy do u know more about others? I am very interested in this dog issues BUT i cant find any suitable ones to discuss with. maybe i am as what chrisong said: " you are a person who is so irritating, want to vomit to discuss with u"

the main problem i met is when i intend to discuss abt certain topic, there are certain ppl act like what i mention above, so NO healthy discussion can continue.

hope i can learn lots of things from u if u dont mind, i got lots of ques in mind, but i wonder wether u are free to reply. hey man, this posting seems weird to be posted here.. but im that type of person who simply love to discuss & hate those who create huge disturbance.

just to drop by to compliments this type of healthy discussion, bye~

Regards,

Yang

(This post was edited by leecy on Aug 22, 2005, 10:51 PM)

chrisong
Doggyman

Aug 23, 2005, 5:58 AM

Post #45 of 47 (1715 views)
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Re: [leecy] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey,

I take it positively from what you say about me from other post. That why I stop the discussion with you anymore from that tread and Now you talking bad about me from different tread. You no need to explain to other ppl that you are good other are bad.

It show how inmature you are. Unsure

This is sad

Look what you write here. That is not a healthy message or discussion. Back-stab people. Did I do that? Got mouth say people no mouth say yourself.

leecy
Ultra ALPHA

Aug 23, 2005, 6:38 PM

Post #46 of 47 (1696 views)
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Re: [chrisong] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

please dont be so sensitive. this posting not meant to back stab u. bye.

Regards,

Yang

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Aug 25, 2005, 3:25 AM

Post #47 of 47 (1657 views)
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Re: [leecy] New doggie law for Subang Jaya (and maybe others?) [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello Leecy,
I hv to say I'm quite speechless & flattered. Nvr really had anyone admire me in that way b4.lol.

Ur english is fine

& don't worry abt age. I'm also younger than what most ppl think.

When I meet ppl like that, I do not bother arguing because it will go no where. I noe my own point(i hv good reason to think so) & couldn't be bothered to prove it to ppl who are not willing to keep an open mind. If u do not keep an open mind & accept new ideas,u will nvr learn. If they are willing to question & maybe challenge without hostility then why not.

U cannot change their view. All u can say is "here is my opinion. if it makes sense to u & want to accept it,tht's fine. If not,tht's fine too." Just because they disagree does not make them wrong. It does not make u right either. It just means u both hv different opinions. That is that.

Another thing is, maybe they are sure. I am quite sure they hv their own reasons for thinking so. They must hv some reason to base their opinion on. As for chrisong,I do not know him personally but he has contributed to this forum,as many members hv.

Leecy, do not take what is said in the forum personally coz ppl don't noe u personally do they? Smile

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

(This post was edited by Admin on Aug 25, 2005, 8:59 PM)

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