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nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman

Dec 8, 2004, 11:59 PM

Post #1 of 48 (7956 views)
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guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight	Can't Post

My dogs fight like a mad pitbull fight...one female Dotcom and one male Bobby..they about 10 months old....just like anyone face this problem before..they are good buddy when they are young and it all started since Bobby went a trip to the vet about 5 months ago because of injury...they been fighting since then i never stop finding a solution....they sometime bite till they bleed...although i trying to hose them down..it never work because it so heat up...sometime i have no choice i have to use a roll up newspaper and hit them to stop them..it so frustrating...
Right now..they are tie up when they are together and when the time they are release will be one of them in the front yard and the other at the back yard...i been separating them since 2 months now...so less fighting now cuz they hardly see each other! The thing i am worrying about is the 3rd new member to our furry family my best friend bringing over...a basset hound puppy....no idea which side to put him..he only 6 weeks...any idea ppl??

Desperately nicky_spykeaz

Cheers ya,

Nicki the Devil live by the reputation of the name

boBby is a craz3 car PassaNger
Fat FaT other case Elegant Car GuEst
What make Me?
A LoYal huMan Driver.... Frown

NoBody is Prefect, Guess What i am Nobody
Nice to meet YOu

(Bobby+Nicky craze JT memBer)

BoBby San DogstEr
http://www.dogster.com/?158414
http://spykeaz-devil.blogspot.com/

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Dec 9, 2004, 10:58 AM

Post #2 of 48 (7940 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi ...

Sounds like you have a "serious" issue ... bitting hard enough to draw blood is not good news.

What I find rather unusual is for a male & female to have such problems with each other ...

I will assume that both you & your family have no problems handling the dogs ... and that the problem is solely between the dogs. I will also assume that your dogs are not fearful or aggressive dogs.

It may be an issue of dominance where neither dog is prepared to give in (which is unusual but not unheard of) ...

Issues of dominance between dogs can be made worse - when the owner does not exercise sufficient overall leadership & dominance over the dogs. When an owner does not exercise leadership, the dogs will try to take over, and in trying to take over - that can cause problems between themselves.

Will suggest the following:

(A) As owner - you must learn how to firmly place yourself as the leader of your pack.

(B) The best and most effective way is through training your dogs - training basic commands of sit, stay etc etc ... and especially the command "NO" ...

(C) You also need to learn how to keep your dogs in their respective places within pack (namely: you, your family & the dogs) and how to maintain stability within the pack ... For example: You need to experiment with order of feeding, order of treating etc etc ...

Once you have achieved this position of leadership & dominance over BOTH dogs - you may find it easier to get a handle on the situation because at least then - the dogs will obey you.

Given the situation you currently have - the above may be easier said then done ... But you have to start and tackle the problem or the problem will only get worse - and you may have to keep the dogs apart ...

It is not going to be possible to provide you with all the information you need via this Forum

The best way to start is:

(i) Get a good training manual and get a good problem solving book ... Most good dog behavioral books will have a section on dominance and how to deal with it ... For suggestions try these:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890622559/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/102-4613130-0121765?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1577790189/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/102-4613130-0121765?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966870506/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/102-4613130-0121765?v=glance&s=books&st=*

(ii) Read the books ... and start training and setting out order within the pack.

And if you find that you still cannot sort out the situation - it may be wise to ask someone who is experienced with dogs or a good dog trainer to give you a hand.

As for the new pup - I would seriously suggest that until you sort out the problem you have - you are not in the position to take in another young dog ... Or at least - ask someone experienced with dogs to assess the temperament of your existing dogs before making a decision ...

Cheers

happytux
Dog Kichi

Dec 9, 2004, 11:06 AM

Post #3 of 48 (7937 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi there... if there is a way to avoid more tension, it would be NOT having the new puppy. The dogs would feel that their space is being invaded..What you could probably do to improve the situation is to reintroduce your 2 dogs very, very, slowly....it's a good idea to separate them for awhile. But adding another dog to the already stressed out pack?... Wow! Did you talk to a behaviour therapist or an experienced trainer? I personally feel that you really should avoid putting more stress to them... You mentioned that the pup is your best friend's? Is the pup here to stay or is he coming just for a visit?
Happytux

nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman

Dec 11, 2004, 3:09 AM

Post #4 of 48 (7909 views)
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Re: [happytux] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

that why i am holding on to the basset hound on hold now.....i been thinking and thinking...finally ask my friend to take care of the b,hound until i am ready to introduce them together...
Currently fighting is in control so no worry........hehe

Cheers ya,

Nicki the Devil live by the reputation of the name

boBby is a craz3 car PassaNger
Fat FaT other case Elegant Car GuEst
What make Me?
A LoYal huMan Driver.... Frown

NoBody is Prefect, Guess What i am Nobody
Nice to meet YOu

(Bobby+Nicky craze JT memBer)

BoBby San DogstEr
http://www.dogster.com/?158414
http://spykeaz-devil.blogspot.com/

happytux
Dog Kichi

Dec 11, 2004, 7:10 AM

Post #5 of 48 (7902 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi there..... I am happy for you.... As long as the fighting is in control... All esle can be worked out later...I wish you all the best and hope your dogs can get reacquainted again... I know the amount of stress that you must have gone through.. I had the same problem before... Most of the time, it can be solved.. Just be patient.. When you feel that the tension has gone much lesser, you can begin to take them for short walks together. It will be the best thing if you have a family or friend walk one of the dogs while you walk the other one. Try observe how they react to each other's presence. Then, if that's okay, slowly have them walk side by side... make sure you have some goodies with you. Give them some treats to reduce the stress...
Happytux

nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman

Dec 13, 2004, 6:17 AM

Post #6 of 48 (7878 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi, well as i post a story of my puppies in the dominant section, after a throughly observation and some so-called pro help, i think i know why my two dog fight in the past. Because of the area i live at, there is alot of male stray dog in the neighbour. And there is this 4 male dog that like the company of my female dog, Dotcom, as you know what i mean. Since i have restricted her move about because the pack of male will resist the other male dog i have, Bobby, same breed in mixing with them. Most of the time, Bobby come home will injuring. The funny thing is, Dotcom will not allow Bobby to do what ever the stray male dog do to her. Because of this there is always a tension between them. My question was, how can i train my female dog to resist other male attention. Because of this issue, in the future, i might spayed the female because i do not want any addition to the family yet. I can control Bobby but not the stray dog. Can any one help? And how i can train to understand the meaning of no when come to her sister, Dotcom?

Cheers ya,

Nicki the Devil live by the reputation of the name

boBby is a craz3 car PassaNger
Fat FaT other case Elegant Car GuEst
What make Me?
A LoYal huMan Driver.... Frown

NoBody is Prefect, Guess What i am Nobody
Nice to meet YOu

(Bobby+Nicky craze JT memBer)

BoBby San DogstEr
http://www.dogster.com/?158414
http://spykeaz-devil.blogspot.com/

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Dec 13, 2004, 8:13 AM

Post #7 of 48 (7875 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz, happytux] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

...

...

If you have been "thoroughly observing" your dogs with "pro-help" ... then you should already know what to do ... what did the "pro" suggest as a solution to your problem ...?

How come stray dogs have access to your dogs, Bobby & Dotcom; or why are you allowing Bobby and/or Dotcom to run around with stray dogs?

Sorry ... I don't think trying to teach your female dog to resist a male dog is a solution ... If a female dog is on heat, then she is going to attract male dogs - no amount of training is going to change that ...

The solution is - for you to learn how to rear and bring up dogs properly ...

Suggestions:

(A) De-sex both your dogs as soon as possible ... And you'd better check if your female dog is on heat ...

(B) You better stop allowing stray dogs to have access to your dogs or vice versa, because if you don't - then you are going to have even more problems - such as (i) ticks, fleas, mange, parasitic and other forms of infection ... (ii) injuries from dog fights ... etc ... (iii) unwanted litters ...

(C) Go get some dogs books and start readiing. Please learn how to bring up/rear dogs.

Cheers

(This post was edited by surchinmy on Dec 13, 2004, 8:18 AM)

nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman

Dec 14, 2004, 6:54 PM

Post #8 of 48 (7832 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for your advise...going to try that like right now..
Well....because i stay in shoplot so during the day, the dog are tie (very long leash) but freely roaming in the porch so those stray can get into the porch area because it not fully fences cuz we park our car there..that why..
Well i dont like the pro idea cuz he is asking me in fact demanding me to give up on the female...which i am not going to...that why i call him the so-called pro guy..
De-sex here you mean spayed the dogs is it? if is not what is de-sex and procedure....

Thanks for all your help

Cheers ya,

Nicki the Devil live by the reputation of the name

boBby is a craz3 car PassaNger
Fat FaT other case Elegant Car GuEst
What make Me?
A LoYal huMan Driver.... Frown

NoBody is Prefect, Guess What i am Nobody
Nice to meet YOu

(Bobby+Nicky craze JT memBer)

BoBby San DogstEr
http://www.dogster.com/?158414
http://spykeaz-devil.blogspot.com/

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Dec 14, 2004, 10:34 PM

Post #9 of 48 (7818 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ah ... ok ...

It may not be such a good idea to use a leash ... (a) A leash can get tangled up, and can accidentially choke or hurt your dog ... (b) A leash also does not prevent the strays from coming into contact with your dog (and that will make it easier to pass ticks, lice etc, diseases, or bring about unwanted puppies) ...

So instead of a leash, will suggest that you use some form of fencing to confine your dog ... so as to try and minimise the risks above.

Maybe a puppy pen (which you can buy from any well-stocked pet shop) or some other form of barrier ... At least then, the "fence" will divide your dog & the strays.

"De-sex" is a general term which means spaying your bitch (female) and neutering your dog (male) ...

Cheers

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Jun 22, 2005, 1:04 AM

Post #10 of 48 (7333 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi, I was just spending some times reading all the old stuff when I came along your post. How is the topic going on? Did you de-sex your dogs? How did you stop the fighting?

I could not find any reference to the age of both fighters. It is sometimes an issue when both dogs of same age and of same strength. I know that it sounds strange but that is my experience with a pack of dogs. As long as they have a big age difference the hierarchy establishes very fast; hence, not much fighting after that.

On the other hand, if a hierarchy is established and we ignore it then we add stress to the pack. They will try to reinforce their established position, especially when the alpha dog (we) is not around.

Well, I am just curious how it end.

nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman

Jun 22, 2005, 2:14 AM

Post #11 of 48 (7330 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Unfortunately, one of the dog that was fighting that was the female Fat Fat passed on the surgery table due to complication Frown

But now..I have adopted or more like i pick up a stray pup named Benjy..They get along fine..but who know..i crossed my finger..Now as a start, i make sure that Benjy know who is the alpha dog, that is Bobby. We make sure when feeding time, we place to Bobby first then Benjy, Walk also the same, Bobby leash first then only Benjy..We just make sure the order is correct. But both of them get love and care the same...only the order. This is to let them know the position in the house, they cant chance anything even they fight... Now it work so far..
My vet said normally, dog apart within one age normally will trigger fight. De-Sex sometime cannot stop the fight unless, the dog is de-sex 7-8 months..over the age of one, normally not so effective..

Smile

Cheers ya,

Nicki the Devil live by the reputation of the name

boBby is a craz3 car PassaNger
Fat FaT other case Elegant Car GuEst
What make Me?
A LoYal huMan Driver.... Frown

NoBody is Prefect, Guess What i am Nobody
Nice to meet YOu

(Bobby+Nicky craze JT memBer)

BoBby San DogstEr
http://www.dogster.com/?158414
http://spykeaz-devil.blogspot.com/

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Jun 22, 2005, 7:50 PM

Post #12 of 48 (7321 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry to hear about the fate of Fat Fat
Give me the name of the vet, so that I can safely avoid the guy.

Just perfect how you handle the hacking order cum hierarchy in your family. I doubt that you will face the fighting problem again.

Your vet�s explanation might be OK but is he the same vet who wasted Fat Fat?
As long as we had dogs, no fights between them when dogs were of different age (about 2 years apart). Male dogs started fighting whenever a female was in heat, but we hardly had more then one fully grown male around (to heavy and to powerful).

To de-sex the dogs will work, but nobody should expect wonders, just a little help and some health benefits.
For the latter it is correct that it brings more when done early in a female dogs life (before the bitch gets into the first heat) but it is better to wait for a male dog a little longer. He can develop the real male look and size when neutered a little later in life.

nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman

Jun 23, 2005, 12:51 AM

Post #13 of 48 (7317 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

No..he is not the same vet..the vet is a bye bye and history..
As for now, Benjy and Bobby both really scare at the sound of newspaper bang...a slighty bang will do the trick...so everytime if they naughty or misbehave i punish them by the showing them the rolls of newspaper..then i confine them in a corner...which mean no toy, no walk, no playing and etc for at least few hours until they listen and learn from their mistake..so far it work Smile

To make male less interest in female, it is best to neuter them early but so far i have not neuter my dog early in that age because i found a solution..that is like i told you..punishment and confinement..
I use to have 2 GSD both 17 months a part, so far no fight...Because on of the GSD is very alpha dog..no dog in the house dare to mess around with him. Maybe like you said, i keep the hierarchy workimg...He do everything first Frown

Cheers ya,

Nicki the Devil live by the reputation of the name

boBby is a craz3 car PassaNger
Fat FaT other case Elegant Car GuEst
What make Me?
A LoYal huMan Driver.... Frown

NoBody is Prefect, Guess What i am Nobody
Nice to meet YOu

(Bobby+Nicky craze JT memBer)

BoBby San DogstEr
http://www.dogster.com/?158414
http://spykeaz-devil.blogspot.com/

tterrynick
Enthusiast

Jul 8, 2005, 4:06 AM

Post #14 of 48 (7267 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

may i join in here with my situation?

i have 4 pekes, 2 males, 2 females. nicky is 4 years and adek 7 months. oh they fight like mad! it usually starts with nicky getting jealous, grumpy, irritated... with adek. he will growl and pounce on adek. when we seperate them, adek will pounce back on nicky and attack him back. recently, nicky damaged adek's eye. adek went for an operation and i hope he is recovering.

you mentioned you've had no problems with 2-year gap, but looks like the age gap here in my case doesn't apply... what to do????

fatty lingling (left) and petite tutu (right), protected by handsome nicky at the back - my 3 precious babies.
now i have 4 babies but baby adek just cannot stay still for a photo-shoot!!

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Jul 8, 2005, 5:59 PM

Post #15 of 48 (7263 views)
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Re: [tterrynick] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

You basically answered your question already.

Hierarchy has to be maintained, if you want peace in the house. You are the alpha dog, next are all human members in your household, after that comes your 4 year old nicky.

The 7 months old adek is an adolescence and should be of lower rank then nicky.

You disciplined nicky and gave �face� to adek. He takes it wrong and thinks that you moved him up the hierarchy ladder thus started to challenge nicky.

Whatever you do. Treat nicky as the number one dog and give him face and the comfort to be accepted in his position. He will not be jealous or feel challenged so much and, if he disciplines a younger dog then try to stay out of it or, if this is not possible, discipline adek for challenging nicky (support nicky, not adek). This should stop the fighting very fast.Adek will outgrow the adolescence age and learn to accept his rank in the pack.

tterrynick
Enthusiast

Jul 11, 2005, 2:18 AM

Post #16 of 48 (7260 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

thanks for the advice. i know nicky should be above adek. but sometimes nicky attacks unprovoked. adek can be sitting near him, minding his own business and nicky will just pounce on him. he should learn not to do that, shouldn't he?

fatty lingling (left) and petite tutu (right), protected by handsome nicky at the back - my 3 precious babies.
now i have 4 babies but baby adek just cannot stay still for a photo-shoot!!

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Jul 12, 2005, 7:53 PM

Post #17 of 48 (7245 views)
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Re: [tterrynick] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sure, that is your job to teach him that. You are the alpha in the pack and you make the call. Wink

Just say very firmly NO and see if he obeys. Sometimes, the body posture was perceived �disrespectful� and triggered the disciplinary action. Sometimes, it is just plain bully behavior. You have to observe and analyze it. If the latter is the case, then you have to make it very clear that you do not tolerate that behavior and discipline him without questioning his position (not easy to do, I know).

tterrynick
Enthusiast

Jul 12, 2005, 10:39 PM

Post #18 of 48 (7237 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

i try to be objective about the situation and the proper punishment. currently, the 2 boys are separated because of the injury in adek's eye - due to nicky's attack. but somehow, nicky seems to realise that he is at fault. i hope that when i let adek free when he gets well, nicky will be able to restrain himself...

fatty lingling (left) and petite tutu (right), protected by handsome nicky at the back - my 3 precious babies.
now i have 4 babies but baby adek just cannot stay still for a photo-shoot!!

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Jul 12, 2005, 11:43 PM

Post #19 of 48 (7230 views)
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Re: [tterrynick] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry to say, but I doubt that nicky knows that. I guess that he has defended his territory, successfully as he would think about it.

You should introduce adek very slowly and controlled to nicky, once he is healthy again. Put adek in the down position (submissive) and let nicky sniff while on leash. In this way, you will be in full control. Don�t let nicky free until he got the idea that you are the alpha, that you are in complete control and that he has to accept adek into the pack.Good Luck.

tterrynick
Enthusiast

Aug 29, 2005, 4:37 AM

Post #20 of 48 (7144 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

tried your suggestion, joe. however adek is challenging nicky's position as the alpha, he is the one growling at nicky, even from inside his cage. at the moment, they are still separated most of the time as adek's eye is still not fully recovered. i am worried that when adek has recovered, it would still be difficult for them to socialise. i really do not want them to be forcibly kept apart - they should be enjoying each other's company.

fatty lingling (left) and petite tutu (right), protected by handsome nicky at the back - my 3 precious babies.
now i have 4 babies but baby adek just cannot stay still for a photo-shoot!!

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Aug 30, 2005, 6:42 PM

Post #21 of 48 (7140 views)
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Re: [tterrynick] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know it is not easy but YOU are the alpha and YOU make the rules; hence, YOU have to enforce them too.

Pay more attention to Nicky and feed him first, greet him first when you return home, etc. Make it clear to everyone that Nicky is second in line.But never forget to make it crystal clear to everyone that YOU are the alpha and that nobody can question your position. All have to do something before you �grant� the food, etc. If Adek still growls at Nicky then muzzle Adek and command him into down position when introducing Nicky to him. The moment they start fighting then yell NO and command Adek into down position and Nicky into sit position. Check if Nicky is OK and then check Adek. I guess that Adek will accept his lower rank within a couple of weeks, but the above stated method has to be in place for the rest of their lifes.

tterrynick
Enthusiast

Sep 3, 2005, 5:51 AM

Post #22 of 48 (7108 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

do you think castrating both of them helps?

fatty lingling (left) and petite tutu (right), protected by handsome nicky at the back - my 3 precious babies.
now i have 4 babies but baby adek just cannot stay still for a photo-shoot!!

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Sep 5, 2005, 6:29 PM

Post #23 of 48 (7092 views)
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Re: [tterrynick] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

It might. Do not expect to much from castrating. It helps for some health related problems and might reduce the marking and roaming desire.

It is probably better when you try to establish the �hacking order� in your pack and when you follow the stated method strictly. Once you have clarified this point to both dogs, the fighting desire should stop.Good luck.

vicfion
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 14, 2005, 5:55 AM

Post #24 of 48 (7064 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

You were right about castrating.. Won't help at all.. Just today, my 2 females fought... I will introuduce you as the new female who often started the fights.... The new female was given to me to be re-home.. I tried to helped this couple but twice were sent back to me... I feel very sad for the new female... She has been 7 homes included mine 3 times... Have agressive problem and fights with other female Shih Tzu and etc... Now I had been keeping her almost 1 year... And I find myself cannot tolerate with the fighting... All the other little problems has been solve except picking rubbish from dustbin and one or two others, but not the fighting.... That can never been solve until now I had even castrating her.. I have 4 Cockers and 3 of them had been castrating... Vet told me by castrating will calm her down.. They fight until blood everywhere and we who try to seperate them often got biten (nothing ever helps, beating, hose them down even by pulling them from one another, we find that the other would charge back to the other one but luckily after a few minutes of scolding, my other female would stops so I would pull away the new female instead) The new female often picking up fights until my other female so fed-up and would fight back now... I was firm to her but it never helps... I said a firm "NO!" cannot help either... She would starts by going round my other female then climb on her and starts biting and wouldn't let go... Gosh I am getting nowhere but typing longer and longer.. Sorry.. Right now I would cage the new female until she is calm but yet it did not help... HELP! Thanks for listening.. Fion

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Sep 14, 2005, 8:31 PM

Post #25 of 48 (7056 views)
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Re: [vicfion] guess i am not alone here....my dogs fight [In reply to]	Can't Post

I do admire your effort to help this little neglected doggie. It is very understandable that this dog has a social problem. It never had the chance to bond to anyone; hence, is fighting for what she thinks is right.

It will be very difficult to change but it is possible.
First, try to establish a bond with her. Spend time grooming, playing, etc. She has to learn that you are good and reliable and fair and that the rules are for everyone. Do not crate her as a punishment because then she will dislike the crate only. Keep her on leash most of the time until she learns to behave correctly. I know it sounds tough (and it is) but that is the way to keep control and not get bitten by the dog.

Second, establish the hierarchy by yourself. Look at each dog and be the judge. What position he or she should have? Once you made up your mind then start greeting, grooming, feeding and giving toys in this order. It is not unfair to the other dogs. They will like it this way, since the hierarchy is clear and no fight is needed to secure this position.Good luck.

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