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Home: Dog and Puppy Training: Dog Obedience Training & General Training Topics:
How to command her STAY!





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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 6, 2004, 5:15 AM

Post #51 of 71 (1679 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Not sure what you mean by "focus" training ... Do you mean training the dog to pay "attention"?

Smile


Sydney
Doggyman


Nov 6, 2004, 6:31 AM

Post #52 of 71 (1673 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

i thought dogs cant eat those cause i thought they contain those thing and then make the dog feel sick.

FrownFrownSidney's DogsterFrown
Frown
Your's truly,
Sydn3yFrownFrownFrown


DragonArt



RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Nov 8, 2004, 9:33 AM

Post #53 of 71 (1651 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

yea Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Nov 8, 2004, 7:22 PM

Post #54 of 71 (1644 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

then that would involve training the dog the "watch" command


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 8, 2004, 9:24 PM

Post #55 of 71 (1632 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer, Hunter] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Agree with Hunter ... if by "focus" ... you mean a "pay attention" command (or as Hunter says, a "watch" command) ... then you have to train slightly differently ...

The best & easiest way (that I know) to teach "pay attention" is to start training with Clicker ... very fast with clicker.

STEP 1: Whenever the dog makes eye contract with your eyes ... CLICK ... immediately priase/treat ... No word commands are used at this stage.

With a clicker ... this can be as fast as 5 to 10minutes! ... And your dog will start to understand.

You have 2 possible methods for this stage:

Method (A) ... Use finger ... place finger in front of dog ... dog looks at finger ... CLICK ... immediately praise & treat (same with training "targeting") ...

As dog understands looking at finger brings reward ... bring finger towards your face ... when dog's eyes follows finger ... CLICK ... praise & treat.

Finally, as dog's eyes follows your finger - bring your finger to your eyes ... if dog's eyes follows finger to your eyes ... CLICK ... praise & treat.

Method (B) ... Skip the finger ... and just try and make eye contact with dog ... As soon as dog's eyes makes contact with your eyes ... CLICK ... immediately praise & treat ...

The advantage with Method A is that as you train ... you are subtly also introducing a hand signal ... ie ... your finger movement.

Whichever method you use - repeat again and again ... until the dog knows that making eye contact bring treat/reward ...As you train this stage ... and as eye contact is made more and more often ... make praise & treat irregular ...

Use Jackpot method of treating to ground this element of training.

STEP 2: Once the above is grounded ... your dog will be looking at you fairly frequently ... And it is time to introduce word command ... "Watch" or "Look" or whatever command you find appropriate ... then CLICK ... praise & treat ... Repeat as with Step 1.

STEP 3: In this final stage ... phase out the Click and rely on the word command ... say command ... expect the dog to make eye contact ... praise & treat ... Repeat as with Step 1.

Cheers


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Nov 9, 2004, 2:39 AM

Post #56 of 71 (1619 views)
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Re: [surchinmy,hunter] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

hi

thanks for sharing the ways on how to train the "watch" command..Smile

but..i think my earlier question was a little misunderstood..

what i wanted to know/confirm is if the "stay" command was a form of focus training,seeing that the dog has to focus on the face as the owner moves away.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 9, 2004, 4:33 AM

Post #57 of 71 (1610 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your question: " ... what i wanted to know/confirm is if the "stay" command was a form of focus training, seeing that the dog has to focus on the face as the owner moves away ..."

Tongue ...

Think we have a little miscommunication here ... CrazyLaughSmile ...

My original posting:


(Step 1) ... Command "sit" with dog near you ... (Step 2) Wait for dog to settle - turn & face dog ... (Step 3) Always facing the dog - assume upright stance & move backwards (slowly) ... (Step 4) When leash is fully extended ... lay down the leash ... step on leash with a foot ... (Step 5) ... Hold

For example: Just do Step 1 to 3 first ... Command "sit" ... dog settles down, turn & face dog, then move one or two steps backwards away from dog (always facing dog, use your eyes to keep control of dog) - If dog does not break "sit" ... Well Done! ... "release & call" the dog to you - praise & treat ... Repeat this again and again ... just Step 1 to Step 3.


When training "stay" ... especially, in early stages of training "stay" ... it's the trainer who has to pay attention & face the dog so that the trainer knows if or when the dog is thinking of or going to break stay ... and so be able to react appropriatly to prevent the break or take appropriate remedial steps ... Of course, once training is grounded, the trainer need not keep eyes so fixed on dog.

It's not so much the dog who is being trained to keep looking at or "focus" on the trainer ...

As a general expectation & rule ... and ideally ... the dog is always encouraged & trained to "focus" on the trainer/handler ... and that can be encouraged/trained by using the "pay attention" training outlined in my subsequent post.

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Nov 9, 2004, 4:40 AM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Nov 9, 2004, 8:34 AM

Post #58 of 71 (1596 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

aaaaaahhhhh........k k...gotchaSmileTongueWink

thanks so much Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Nov 9, 2004, 10:27 AM

Post #59 of 71 (1588 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

i guess it's time to look for my clicker again. now where did i put it :/


thomstan
Canine Addict


Nov 18, 2004, 11:20 PM

Post #60 of 71 (1566 views)
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Re: [hunter] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Can I know what exactly a clicker is?



The one you love is the one that should take you higher


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Nov 19, 2004, 6:13 AM

Post #61 of 71 (1559 views)
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Re: [thomstan] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

clicker is a simple device that produces clicking sounds. it's used for the clicker training method and was said to being effective by many trainers.

more info at : [url]http://www.clickertrain.com/[/url] or you can type "clicker" in yahoo or google's search engine.


thomstan
Canine Addict


Nov 19, 2004, 9:52 PM

Post #62 of 71 (1547 views)
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Re: [hunter] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

very informative site.. thanx man!
btw.. another question... that clicker... from the site it looks like those toy things where it's a metal plate and when you press on it.. it gives the click sound.. can those be used as a clicker as well?
hope you know what i'm taking about...



The one you love is the one that should take you higher


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Nov 20, 2004, 12:36 AM

Post #63 of 71 (1538 views)
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Re: [thomstan] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, u can use those toys thing too. it works the same.

anything that clicks can be used as a clicker. even pen can be used. just make sure the clicking sound is loud enough to be heard by your dog if not it wouldn't be effective!


thomstan
Canine Addict


Nov 20, 2004, 12:53 AM

Post #64 of 71 (1531 views)
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Re: [hunter] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Great!
Thanx a lot man!



The one you love is the one that should take you higher


j9yne
Member


Nov 20, 2004, 8:54 AM

Post #65 of 71 (1515 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy,

I just came across this thread about clicker training, and it sounds pretty interesting. The thing is my dog is enrolled in OB class now. Will it confuse him to introduce clicker training together with the normal training? Crazy


current doggie at home : junior (silky terrier) Frown
my wish list : ckcs Frown


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 20, 2004, 10:15 AM

Post #66 of 71 (1507 views)
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Re: [j9yne, hunter, RealityDreamer] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm ...

Hope you don't mind if I cross-post this to Hunter & RealityDreamer ... because they might be interested too.



Question: Will it confuse him to introduce clicker training together with the normal training?

My answer is ... Yes & No ... ... because it depends on how the trainer goes about doing it.


Perhaps we need to explore a little the differences between clicker training and traditional training.

Traditional training ... is basically based on what is known as "operant conditioning"; in other words, teaching the dog to associate a "behaviour" with a "positive or negative reinforcement/consequence".

Traditional training generally requires the trainer to "show or lead" the dog to do what the trainer deems is desired behaviour ...

For example:

A trainer will often use his/her hands (or a treat) to manoeuvre the dog into the desired sit or down position ... and when the dog does what is desired - the trainer praises and/or rewards (positive reinforcement) ...

If the dog does not do what is desired ... then a reprimand is delivered (negative consequence).

A positive reinforcement will encourage the behaviour and a negative consequence will diminish that behaviour.

As the trainer manoeuvres the dog into the desired position or to do the desired act or action - the trainer also introduces the voice command (verbal association) and/or hand signal (sign association) ... and this teaches the dog to associate the desired behaviour with the command.

Clicker training ... is actually based on what is known as "Classical Conditioning", as discovered by Pavlov during his famous experiment with dogs & the bell.

Classical conditioning ... teaches the dog (or any animal) to form association with 2 stimuli ... and we use this stimuli association, to communicate the desired behaviour to the animal. Originally, clicker training was developed to train dolphins ... because normal training methods would not have worked ...

In clicker training ... you WAIT until the animal does something desired ... and then you "click" (1st stimuli) ... and follow with praise/treat (2nd stimuli) ...

For example:

If you wish to teach a dog to "sit" ... then you hold clicker in hand and wait ... When the dog sits - you click & immediately offer treat ... Once you repeat this a few times - your dog will work out all by itself that everytime it sits, the clicker goes ... and WOW - a treat!!! ...

At this stage no verbal or signs are used ... and the dog is allowed to make the association through its own intelligence (which is why clicker training is so effective & gentle).

During this process the dog, learns 2 things ... ONE - Click means treat ... and TWO - Sit means click, which means treat!!! ...

Before long - you will find your dog "sitting" to earn the click & the treat ... very natural and easy!

The other beauty of the clicker method is this - as the association between the 2 stimuli is reinforced and made stronger through repetition ... the longer we can lengthen the delay between the 2 stimuli without affecting effectiveness ... wonderful!

Verbal and/or sign commands are introduced only AFTER the dog makes the association between desired behaviour with the 2 stimuli.


So - back to your question: Will the introduction of clicker training confuse a dog who is also simultaneously being trained in the traditional way?

Yes - if the trainer is not careful ... For example: If the trainer is already training "sit" using traditional training ... attempting to introduce clicker training for "sit" at the SAME TIME ... may confuse the dog - at least in the beginning ...

However, it may not confuse the dog if the trainer uses the clicker to train a DIFFERENT desired behaviour ...

I have used clicker training as a follow-up to reinforce commands originally taught using traditional training ... and I have also used the clicker to train one desired behaviour, while using traditional training to train another desired behaviour ... and it seems to work ... I just avoid using 2 different methods at the same time, to try and train the same desired behaviour.

So, ultimately - I would say this - it depends on the trainer & the dog ...

If a trainer understand and knows the different principles involved in different methods of teaching - then the trainer can with the correct dog, with some imagination & care, be able to combine different methods of teaching/training effectively ...

After all, no one training method works for ALL dogs ...

But if the trainer does not understand well enough the principles involved in the different methods, but still insists on combining different methods - then yes, there is risk that the dog can get confused BECAUSE the trainer is confused ... Shocked

And a confused trainer will train a confused dog ...

So - before combining teaching/training methods - study & understand the different methods first ... and then use your imagination and train according to the individual dog.

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Nov 20, 2004, 10:30 AM)


j9yne
Member


Nov 20, 2004, 8:00 PM

Post #67 of 71 (1489 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for ur reply Smile... seems like u stayed up pretty late too Tongue

Anyway, the reason I am interested in clicker training is because my dog doesn't want to heel properly and by using choke chain, it cuts the fur at his neck Pirate. And I don't want to tug or pull him all the way. He walks with me during heeling, but he tends to get distracted easily and doesn't walk beside me all the time. I'm not sure if clicker training will help in his heeling. But I'm still willing to try it to teach him other tricks . Furthermore I might be enrolling him in the next stage of OB class. So i'm really worried about confusing him Unsure.

Another question is, will he think of the clicker as a new toy because of the sound it makes? For example if i click when he's at down position, and on hearing the click, he sits up.. then will he be able to associate the "click" with down position? Blush

BTW, I've yet to see a clicker around. Do you know where I can get it?

Thanks Cool


current doggie at home : junior (silky terrier) Frown
my wish list : ckcs Frown


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 21, 2004, 3:05 AM

Post #68 of 71 (1476 views)
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Re: [j9yne] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

" ... Another question is, will he think of the clicker as a new toy because of the sound it makes? For example if i click when he's at down position, and on hearing the click, he sits up.. then will he be able to associate the "click" with down position? ..."

Ah ... which is why I strongly suggest (even before getting a clicker) you get a clicker manual first - read & understand clicker training - before starting any training ...

This is a good starter manual - www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890948055/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/103-2564268-0523818?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

You can order clickers from the websites I provided in the post above ... Alternatively, use the Search Function ... I remember someone posting where clickers can be found in the Klang Valley.

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Nov 21, 2004, 3:07 AM)


j9yne
Member


Nov 21, 2004, 3:36 AM

Post #69 of 71 (1468 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for ur suggestion, surchinmy . I'll learn more about this clicker training before putting it into practise (am looking into the manual u recommended). BTW, I find ur reviews in amazon.com very helpful . The books that you recommended sounds really interesting eg: the one by Suzanne Clothier . I'm now looking for a good book to read during my hols Sly. Hope I can get it at the local bookstores.


current doggie at home : junior (silky terrier) Frown
my wish list : ckcs Frown


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 21, 2004, 4:45 AM

Post #70 of 71 (1459 views)
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Re: [j9yne] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ... thanks ...

This is Karen Pryor's website on Clicker Training ... www.clickertraining.com/home/

If you are seriously interested and we will see what we can do about getting you started on clicker training ...

Yeah ... Suzanne Clothier's book is one of the best I have ever read ... amazing lady & great book ...

Cheers


j9yne
Member


Nov 21, 2004, 5:50 AM

Post #71 of 71 (1456 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] How to command her STAY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Cool,

Thanks for all ur recommendations. I'll surely contact u once i've researched enough on clicker training. Oh btw, I checked out MPH's website, and I couldn't find any of the books I was interested in Unsure.


current doggie at home : junior (silky terrier) Frown
my wish list : ckcs Frown

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