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I am so frustrated…







sbt
Enthusiast


Jul 7, 2004, 6:48 AM

Post #1 of 16 (2706 views)
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I am so frustrated… Can't Post

Dear Sifu,

I failed in training my puppy to pee/poo at the right spot.



I have try to train my puppy (8 weeks-GR) to poo at a certain spot. I have followed the method in this forum and some book. I even punish him and even try tying him near the spot where I want him to do his business to no avail.

He seems to poo everywhere whenever he had the urged. Also he is so playful and like to bite a lot. This is a real headache for my family. She also try her best to help train this "bozo" puppy. Now, this become a cause of contentions with my wife. We almost given up.!!

We are worry if at this age I failed to train him, what would happen when he grow to be an adult dog.




HOW AH?? I am at wits-end on what to do.FrownUnsure
A Dog is for Life, Not just for Christmas


PSD
ALPHA


Jul 7, 2004, 9:03 PM

Post #2 of 16 (2695 views)
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Re: [sbt] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

sbt,

First n foremost your dog is not a "bozo". Secondly as a dog he is a clean sheet of paper and u are the one putting ink on it, if that paper becomes a piece of art or meant for rubbish dump then u know who to blame....the paper? or the author? I just want to get this point through as ground rules so that u cool yourself down before anything else.

after you are cooled, them mind telling me
  1. what is the method u learned on this forum?
  2. describe his living quarters and your house and where u want him to poo n pee as close n descriptive as u can
  3. what kind of punishment u did to him
  4. what is your everyday activity with him in detail
  5. are you more willing than your wife did to own the pup or are u both having the same interest to own one willingly?


I will reply you after getting the details from u.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


sbt
Enthusiast


Jul 8, 2004, 6:18 AM

Post #3 of 16 (2677 views)
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Re: [PSD] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

after you are cooled, them mind telling me
  1. what is the method u learned on this forum?
    Basically what I learned is to get a newspaper and absolved the urine and place it at a designated place/spot we wish the puppy to poo/pee.
    I also cleaned up the spot. This is done with the hope that the puppy will smell the newspaper and do it at the designated place. So far this is not working.
    describe his living quarters and your house and where u want him to poo n pee as close n descriptive as u can
    Actually when we are out we put him into his cage 4’ x 3’ at our backyard and will let him out when we are in. He has plenty of space to run about, as the garden area is 40’ by 80’ of land. We want him to do his business near a tree at our garden. If we let him into the house, hopefully he will go into the toilet. So far he has poo on the car porch most of the time and anywhere and everywhere around the garden.
  2. what kind of punishment u did to him
    We scolded and beat him with a slipper on his buttock and drag him to the spot where we want him to do his business. My wife also tied him near the tree but to no avail.
  3. what is your everyday activity with him in detail
    Every morning before going to work, we will feed him and let him play for around 40 mins, and hopefully he will “discharge” and we will put him back into the cage. Sometimes he will poo in the cage before we get up. Every evening when we come back from work, we will feed him again and let him out to play for 11/2 with us around, and another 1-2 hours buy himself. We will put him in the cage for sleeping time.
  4. are you more willing than your wife did to own the pup or are u both having the same interest to own one willingly?
    I love my dog more than My wife Sly
    love the dog. But we both agree to getting him.
    We both are responsible dog owner and treat him with love and care. Since my son is back from Uni holliday he has also take a liking for the dog as well and take care of him.
    As we move into the “brave new world of owning a companion” we are struggling and learning along. The matter of pooing/peeing everywhere can be frustrating.


I will reply you after getting the details from u.
A Dog is for Life, Not just for Christmas


PSD
ALPHA


Jul 8, 2004, 7:06 PM

Post #4 of 16 (2671 views)
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Re: [sbt] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

sbt,

I'm glad that you have come back with very positive response. It shows a very approchable man who is willing to improve himself and I have to give u commendation for that very reason.Smile

before we proceed, I would like to reflect to you these word with a million positive tone in dog training

"Behaviour that lead to success/reward will show itself more and more while behaviour that is unsuccessful/unrewarded will show itself less n less and may dissapear"

I will let you absorb the meaning slowly but always remember this in everyday life when living with a companion called dog.

Your puppy is merely 8 weeks old and the longest he could possibly hold the pee is about 35-45 mins while pooing about 3 hours. It is same as human infants and we do not blame them for soiling the bed for the fact that

1) they do not know soiling is wrong in the first place.

2) the dont have such a strong traction control immediately.

Basically what I learned is to get a newspaper and absolved the urine and place it at a designated place/spot we wish the puppy to poo/pee.
I also cleaned up the spot. This is done with the hope that the puppy will smell the newspaper and do it at the designated place. So far this is not working


It is very good that you describe the method as above. Now I can see where u may have gone astray here. Methods abounds and the method u mentioned above have a very big loophole there. I will try to give u a scenario from a dogs prespective. I dont understand my master's language....dont know what he is trying to tell me. Oh I see that rolled paper....hmmm got some of my smell on it..hehehe thats nice. Maybe I can put more of my smell everywhere lol....

The point here is, before we go to base 2 we have to start at base 1. The dog does not know anything yet. To the animal poo n pee anywhere is not in violation. However as a matter of instinct they would not want to poo on themselves and sleep on it if they can. What u might want to teach the dog first is not to aim at the bullseye but just not poo in the cage. As long as he does not poo in the cage u should sound very happy and praise n reward him with food treats and play with him. After a few times like this he will know if I do it in cage I get nothing and if I do it outside then I get master happy. Naturally dog is a pack animal meaning he want his pack leader (you) to be proud of him and he will reserve his poo longer n longer to poo outside.

Aftet that, once he already gets it, u no longer praise him for pooing outside but to poo around n near the tree. One way of getting him to the tree is u walk him there and act like nothing happens until he suddenly poo or pee....then WOW....thats a GOOOOOOD BOYYY...pet him energetically, laugh, smiles, jump act like a bozo is perfectly ok with the dog and he would liked that very much and reach into your pocket and hand him a nice treat. Do this everytime for 1 month continuously and believe me he wouldnt want to poo n pee anywhere else.Laugh

Actually when we are out we put him into his cage 4’ x 3’ at our backyard and will let him out when we are in. He has plenty of space to run about, as the garden area is 40’ by 80’ of land. We want him to do his business near a tree at our garden. If we let him into the house, hopefully he will go into the toilet. So far he has poo on the car porch most of the time and anywhere and everywhere around the garden

Kenelling is good but at this moment 4x3 may be a little big for a small puppy. As I mentioned earlier, puppy iunstinctively does not want to poo n poo n sleep on those if he has a choice. When housebreaking, we are using this very instinct. In a 4x3, the puppy have space big enough to pee at one corner and sleep in another corner and he learns that poo n pee in kennel is ok. One way is to use a smaller portable plastic cage which just fits the dog so that he will hold the traction and once u let him out quickly bait him to the place u want him to poo n pee and he will start shooting outside. Wallah!Sly

We scolded and beat him with a slipper on his buttock and drag him to the spot where we want him to do his business. My wife also tied him near the tree but to no avail

wherever u learnt this from and whomever u learn this from please return it back to them together with the package. This is as ancient as when my great grandmother was rearing dogs for the sole reason of being a watch dog. To illustrate my point to be clearer to you, again I will do a dog perpective demo.

Ohhhh....please lemme out lemme out,,,I cant hold it any more......okie okie...I'm out I'm out yaaaay......ahhhhhh....wat a feeling...phew....that's niceee.....ARRRRRRRGH...wat happened outchhhhhh its painful....I'm so scared....arrrghhh why is my master beating me .....why is he....pulling me......under the tree???? wat he wants? I'm so confused.....

Kindly, this is dog abuse when u punish a dog and he still learns nothing and have no idea at all why he is being punished.

Every morning before going to work, we will feed him and let him play for around 40 mins, and hopefully he will “discharge” and we will put him back into the cage. Sometimes he will poo in the cage before we get up. Every evening when we come back from work, we will feed him again and let him out to play for 11/2 with us around, and another 1-2 hours buy himself. We will put him in the cage for sleeping time.

Professionally, you should have got a properly house broken dog of 8 months old at least cause 8 weeks old dog is being caged up and only let out only at the interval of more than 10 hours apart. Surely he has to pee n poo inside. Rightfully, an 8 weeks dog needs to be let out every 1/2 hour at first to eliminate outside as per method above and avoid accidents in the kennel. If you are working then someone else should let the pup out regularly. Otherwise he will live with the poo n pee inside kennel and learn to accept that master wants me to sleep on my own poo n soak in my own urine for the rest of his live. Sadly and as hard as this may sound....it is the gospel truth.Frown

I think u should pick up some good titles to read on and try to understand dog behaviour. Dog owning isnt very hard to do and once u understand the underlying behaviours you will be able to handle them effectively and mould them into a piece of "poetry in motion". Please take tyhis constructively Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


renaoh
Enthusiast

Jul 8, 2004, 9:14 PM

Post #5 of 16 (2658 views)
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Re: [PSD] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear PSD,

I loved the way you present your advice. It is informative yet hilarious and amusing, especially when given from a doggie’s perspective. The impact is greater and so much easier to remember.



I myself is in the midst of adopting an adult dog (3 years old) and have been reading up on the Pee n Poo issue to equip myself with information on how to re-train an older dog where to do his toilet business when he comes into his new home.



I like your idea of "success/reward and unsuccessful/unrewarded" concept, but when/where/how do we draw the line because I definitely do not want my dog to expect treats each and every time he does something correct, especially when it comes to basic good doggy behaviors.



Thanks.


PSD
ALPHA


Jul 8, 2004, 10:26 PM

Post #6 of 16 (2647 views)
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Re: [renaoh] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved the way you present your advice. It is informative yet hilarious and amusing, especially when given from a doggie’s perspective. The impact is greater and so much easier to remember.

Rena,

Hahaha.....hoped u liked the bits of amusement there. I always like to see dog handling from the creative point of view as I used it in modern corporate management. Its all about how to recognise the other persons/dog shoes and their natural instinct. There is a quote from one very advance police n military dog trainer of his time Col. Konrad Most that "the more instinctive the action is, the more successful it will be" oh well he was refering to protection training then but it does applies everywhere else like perfections in obedience work.

I myself is in the midst of adopting an adult dog (3 years old) and have been reading up on the Pee n Poo issue to equip myself with information on how to re-train an older dog where to do his toilet business when he comes into his new home.

Yeah I just recently seen your post in another thread. Others seams to be giving u alot of ideas there....hee hee. My advice to you is this. Just start correct from the 1st second he comes into your home. Catch him and let him out before he can shoot in his kennel so that he immediately knows the ground rules of housebreaking. Best training method is to set up for success at all times equivalent to "100 error free". For me I will even observe the dog for a whole 3 day to catch him on the correct timing before he can have any accidents. Do it right for 1 week and he is then good for a lifetime.



I like your idea of "success/reward and unsuccessful/unrewarded" concept, but when/where/how do we draw the line because I definitely do not want my dog to expect treats each and every time he does something correct, especially when it comes to basic good doggy behaviors.

Treats are the easiest to use and the most politically correct reward for the dog. This is because food to dog is like Ringgits to us unless u can find one dog that will work for money instead...Tongue. However there are always dogs whom are genetically not correct where theiur food drive is so poor that u cannot use food as a reward on them successfully.

Ok, to answer your question as above, why shouldnt a dog expect a reward in return for being exceptional? If humans expects a good financial bonus for exceptional performance then why should a dog not entitled to this expectation? Hehehehehe. Figure it out.

Expectation is good and the whole thing about motivational dog training centres on expectation. The more the dog expects the more successful your session will be. However reward then can be food, hearty praise, lavish pet, rigurous play...etc. We always use food first because it is the easiest denomination to understand. When u start work you would want to know how much u will be paid.....then praise from the boss, friendly colleagues and supports are important but secondary factor.....later u might want to stay on and work for peanuts pay if all the other factors are so good to you though. This is same with dogs. So simple way of putting it is start with food that the dog go crazy for, then also use praise, touch, play, etc on different occassion and different timing. This keeps the dog on his best and he tries harder for the thing he likes most.Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


renaoh
Enthusiast

Jul 8, 2004, 11:42 PM

Post #7 of 16 (2641 views)
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Re: [renaoh] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

What you have said makes a lot of sense. That's why I'm asking so many foolish questions to prepare myself before my dog arrives. The poor doggy has been re-home 3 times and is distressed and defensive of itself.

I want to regain its trust n respect and at the same time make it understand from the the very beginning that I am its new master. I want to instill in him obedience and loyatly without resorting to punishment or cruelty.

I have been pre-warned that the dog that I am adopting is an Alpha dog and I need to be very careful and assertive with him otherwise I will lose control and the dog might dominate me instead.

What do you think?


PSD
ALPHA


Jul 9, 2004, 12:22 AM

Post #8 of 16 (2638 views)
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Re: [renaoh] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

Well,

Personally I like challenge which is why my affinity is into protection and also sports training. SO generally I like dominant n strong dogs. However to be fair about things I cant comment much about the dog that I havent met before. However just for the benefit of the doubt, if the dog is dominant and defensive in nature then u really have to be experienced to handle. Those are not dogs for the average pet owners.

As possible advice I can recomend that u hand feed this fella from day one until he becomes comfortable with you. U can be firm in everyday life but not necessary harsh. Lets see how it goes from there.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


sbt
Enthusiast


Jul 9, 2004, 1:53 AM

Post #9 of 16 (2627 views)
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Re: [PSD] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD,

Thank You for your invaluable advises.

"Behaviour that lead to success/reward will show itself more and more while behaviour that is unsuccessful/unrewarded will show itself less n less and may dissapear"

I catch what you mean, as the puppy is rewarded for each good behavior. So much so it will be as if “second nature” to them.” As it come naturally, even without reward. Maybe just a pat of appreciation….

We can see where we go wrong, on the beating the puppy, we learn it from many people who learn it from their grand mothers. Sly So this will have to change.

You seem to understand dog psychology well and this forum has certainly enhanced its usefulness from people like you giving knowledgeable info.



Warm Regards
A Dog is for Life, Not just for Christmas


PSD
ALPHA


Jul 9, 2004, 6:31 PM

Post #10 of 16 (2608 views)
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Re: [sbt] I am so frustrated… [In reply to] Can't Post

sbt,

Glad that u managed to get the idea of my ramblings. Stick around, search n read up all u can and the treasure trove is out there. I believe u will become more knowledgable than the humbled me very soon. Say hi to lil puppy for me.Smile Cause I believe he will be in a good home fur sure. Keep it up.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


weew
Novice

Oct 5, 2004, 1:34 AM

Post #11 of 16 (2321 views)
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Re: [PSD] I am so frustrated� [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,
Very informative on sharing to us who suffer much(as a new dog onwer)about the pee&poo.
I have try to use the newspaper matter, but my pupply(3 months Labrador) just like to tear off the newspaper and make a mass in the toilet....my.... I am going to faint.
Any way can train them that the newspaper is for them to doing business, not to play with?
I am so fustrated every morning seeing the dog with a bit of the urine on their fur. And the smell...ow....wuouoooooorrrrlll..
I stay in a apartment, hopefully this dog won't bake alot when it grow big... if not my jiran going to kill me...

I praise them with daily food, not speical treat food, it is ok? and when can i let the dog be free to walk around in my house? Cos i am putting her in the toilet at this moment for training purposes.

Hope can hear from you soon.Frown


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 6, 2004, 8:17 PM

Post #12 of 16 (2303 views)
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Re: [weew] I am so frustrated� [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Very informative on sharing to us who suffer much(as a new dog onwer)about the pee&poo.
I have try to use the newspaper matter, but my pupply(3 months Labrador) just like to tear off the newspaper and make a mass in the toilet....my.... I am going to faint.



That is natural really Smile. Any good dog will do that. 3 MO puppy will be very mouthy. Therefore leaving him with the papers is just like putting roast beef next to a hungry beggar. I have written quite a bit on this topic and tou can search out my posts. What I'd do with your puppy is to put him in a cage just big enough for him to turn around and sleep. Then release him and lead him to the designated spot (dont have to have newspaper there. When he does it praise and reward if not back to the cage and try again every 1.2 hour to 1 hour.


Quote


I praise them with daily food, not speical treat food, it is ok?



Would you appreciate it if I reward you with what you have already been getting at daily norms? Nothing special rite....so who cares for the reward then? Laugh




Quote


and when can i let the dog be free to walk around in my house? Cos i am putting her in the toilet at this moment for training purposes.



When he is more reliable then he can get more previlages. Smile Also Please dont leave him in the toilet all the time. He will learn that he is expected to bathe in his own urine and eat his own poo...Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 8, 2004, 4:26 AM

Post #13 of 16 (2260 views)
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Re: [PSD] I am so frustrated� [In reply to] Can't Post

" ... Also Please dont leave him in the toilet all the time. He will learn that he is expected to bathe in his own urine and eat his own poo...Tongue ..."


Aaahhh ... Tongue Laugh ... Good line!!! ...


chnyuppie
Dog Kichi

Oct 8, 2004, 6:27 PM

Post #14 of 16 (2251 views)
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I am so frustrated [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

Just stumbled upon this thread which i found v useful.

Just to share, I have a 3 MO pup, with 80% success in the toilet training dept. Well, recently, it's gone down to 60% (he had another accident this morning, when i was at teh computer screen for half a minute!).

During the day and when no one is around, he is kept in kitchen and next to the kitchen, he's gone his own doggie toilet area (with newspapers laid down, sometimes, he tears them up, sometimes he doesn't - i know this can't be helped). It is during the day when his toilet habits are 100% successful.

HOwever in the evening, we let him out and he has the free run of the house. It is during the evening when accidents tend to occur. Cos the toilet area is way back (we are usually in the living room which is in front), some times he has difficulty knowing where to poo poo. Also a bit difficult for us to have to scrutinise his every move when the TV is on or when we are doing other stuff. And also there are some spots in the apt that he tends to wander to which is not in view from the living room. I try to check as much as i can, and also to bring him to the toilet area on a regular basis. Sometimes, got success, sometimes, no. Actually he's been quite good over the weekend. There were a few occasions when he himself made his way to the toilet area at the back.

Anyway, i've got a query. I am intending to bring him out for walks once he's had his 3rd jab. I am just worried that he will learn to only do his toilet outside the apartment. Is taht possible? I prefer not to have that situation since there will be times when i do not intend to take him out (like when it's raining orwet (which will dirty his fur)). AM worried that if he starts doing his toilet stuff outside the apartment, he will un-learn where the in-house toilet is... Oh.. the dilemma or a dog owner!

Can alpha barrister or engineer help?


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 8, 2004, 6:44 PM

Post #15 of 16 (2248 views)
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Re: [chnyuppie] I am so frustrated [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Just to share, I have a 3 MO pup, with 80% success in the toilet training dept. Well, recently, it's gone down to 60% (he had another accident this morning, when i was at teh computer screen for half a minute!).



If I may share my own standards of reference., 80%...90%.....60%... means as good as 0%. Why I said that is because if a dog is not 100% reliable then he has not learned it period. So try not to assume that he is at 90% and suddenly gone to 50% when in actual fact he was all the while obviously not learned it yet. So we shouldnt assume the dog wrongly here.

If you refered to my previous post on hopusebreaking it always starts from guidence phase/learning phase where the reward and enthusiasm is the most for correct action......then it proceeds to advance learning phase where rewards is still coming at interval while avoiding accidents (it is handlers job to avoid accidents not the dog) then come proofing where rewards can be in the form of great praises and good play and sometimes once in a while food. Hope u understand.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 8, 2004, 10:58 PM

Post #16 of 16 (2233 views)
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Re: [chnyuppie] I am so frustrated [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello ...

" ... Just to share, I have a 3 MO pup, with 80% success in the toilet training dept. Well, recently, it's gone down to 60% (he had another accident this morning, when i was at teh computer screen for half a minute!) ..."

Agree with PSD ... it is not possible to evaluate the effectiveness of training by percentage ... a dog is either (a) not trained ... (b) in the process of being trained ... or (b) is trained ...

A dog that is still making mistakes regularly is still in the "process of being trained" ... and is not trained yet.

And during this intermediate process of being trained, the % of success will vary (sometimes quite dramatically) ...

However if training is carried out properly ... there will be a point when consistency is almost always assured, and at that point your dog can be considered "trained".

Even when a dog is "trained" ... accidents & mistakes can still occur - but usually such accidents are rare and will usually have specific causes & reasons. For example: Accidents may happen when events/situations not covered during the original training occur ... Therefore, the wider the range of environmental factors your original training covers - the more effective your training.

For your dog - at 3 months - the progress sounds good ...

Now that you have noticed that accidents & mistakes usually occur when your pup is in the living room (and that distance is the probable cause) ... will suggest as follows:

(a) Only under supervision

Allow your pup into the living room area ONLY under supervision ... and regularly before any accidents or mistakes occur - lead the pup back into the kitchen area to his toilet area for his business ... The point of this is to keep all accidents & mistakes to a minimum and prevent your pup from acquiring the habit of eliminating in the living area.

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - accidents & mistakes which are allowed to happen regularly - becomes a habit that can be very difficult to re-train or un-train.

(b) Effective praise & treating

When your pup successfully makes the journey from living room to the toilet area in the kitchen on his own - Make a huge fuss ... like winning lottery & getting date with Brad Pitt or Pamela Anderson (whichever you prefer) ...

Praise & Treat like crazy ... immediately give the pup special treats ... This is the enthusiasm that PSD is referring to. Continue to actively praise & treat until you see reasonable consistency from your dog. After that the praise & treat can be intermittent ...

Only when the pup is consistently going back to the toilet in kitchen - do you allow unsupervised visits to the living area.

On your last question:

Dogs are creatures of habit ... and outside toileting will not affect house training ... IF ... the house training habits have been properly taught, consistently praised, treated and reinforced until the pup is TRAINED!

Cheers

 
 




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