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TOO AGGRESSIVE???







Sissy
Novice


Mar 21, 2004, 6:08 PM

Post #1 of 22 (7981 views)
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TOO AGGRESSIVE??? Can't Post
Oh dear, I think we have made a huge mistake. Bought a very expensive GSD from a reputable breeder, with Schutzhund bloodlines. Have had our girl about a week and we are worried about this aggression she shows. When we visited the first time, I could hold her in my arms with my hand on her chest without much struggle, forget about that, now. She has bitten every one of us and has drawn blood, tonite. She is seven weeks old and really smart. There are more chew toys lying around, but when we put one in her mouth, she spits it out and bites a hand. Tonite, she and I were lying on the floor and I thought she was sleeping, suddenly, she rushed up and bit my face, drawing blood. I didn't mean to, but I smacked her, mostly to push her away, but she yelped. I don't smack the kids, but they have never bitten me. Is this the Schutzhund thing? Are we in trouble? Should we take her back? Oh, dear.....


boon
Doggyman


Mar 22, 2004, 4:49 PM

Post #2 of 22 (7965 views)
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Re: [Sissy] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
Bought a very expensive GSD from a reputable breeder, with Schutzhund bloodlines.

i would presume u bought her from the working blood line ? hmmm expensive .......do u mind to tell us what is ur gal's parents and grand parents ? from ur avatar she look like a black and tan pup isn't it she ?

Do u crate her too long in day time and she turn to be 'aggressive' or i would use hyper when she is free ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Sissy
Novice


Mar 22, 2004, 6:40 PM

Post #3 of 22 (7961 views)
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Re: [boon] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Her father is Bastin Vom Kokeltal and mother is Minkatel vom Parr

We only crate her for a few hours a day, and the problem seems to only surface at night. Today, after that horrible experience last night, she was fine, responding to the "No Bite", and playing with us outside. She goes in her crate when she chooses, until bedtime, then we shut the door. This evening, again, she becames frantic like. Whining and crying and biting at us and when my husband picked her up to put her in her crate, she snapped at him.

Tomorrow, I am taking her to the vet, if there is nothing wrong with her, we will become more strict about the way she behaves.


boon
Doggyman


Mar 22, 2004, 7:12 PM

Post #4 of 22 (7958 views)
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Re: [Sissy] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi.....

ah.....Bastin v Kokelta.........this is a good dog out of Fero's son (Bernt), a nice bi-color dog....schh 3, fh kkl 1........

the mother side i'm not too familiar, will crawl out more info and will talk about it over here..........

by the way, where r u from ? r u local ?Crazy u can get Bastin's progeny at 6weeks old i pressume ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Sissy
Novice


Mar 22, 2004, 8:04 PM

Post #5 of 22 (7957 views)
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Re: [boon] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
If by local, you mean in the Southeast, then, yes....We bought this pup from her kennel in Alabama. I have discovered a thing or two about prey drive. When we got our dog, we were looking for even temperment, intelligence, and trainable. That's what we understood the working line to be. Every day is getting better, but this puppy sure thinks she runs the show. They said if we discipline her, we would ruin her for competition. If we don't discipline her, she won't be able to live here, I'll tell you that much. I don't want to hurt her, but she's not getting the point. Again tonite, there was biting and gnashing and she goes off and sulks. Not a very loving puppy. Will this go away?


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 22, 2004, 8:49 PM

Post #6 of 22 (7955 views)
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Re: [Sissy] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi ...

A dog bred from good working lines by a responsible breeder will be all that you posted ... namely, the dog should have even temperament ... be intelligent and also be very trainable ... and as you correctly pointed out - the dog will also have strong drives ...

And as owner of a working dog - you will no doubt realise that with "intelligence & drive" ... also comes quick & independant thinking ... and usually strong personality ...

So, while your pup possess all the qualities you desire ... it now becomes incumbent upon the owner to also be intelligent and knowledgable, so as to be able to cope with, handle and train all those "positive qualities" bred into a working dog ... lest those same qualities become "negative qualities".

It is very similar to the situation many teachers find themselves in ... it is far more challenging teaching intelligent children and tying keeping intelligent children from getting bored ...

I do not think your breeder is saying that you cannot discipline your pup at all or that your pup should be allowed to do whatever it wishes or wants ...

I believe what your breeder means is that ... your pup should not be subject to unreasonable or ill-considered discipline ...

There is good & positive discipline, as well as bad & irresponsible discipline ...

For example: Bad discipline is when an irresponsible owner without first training the dog, punishes the dog for eliminating in the wrong place ... Bad discipline is thinking that constantly pulling on a slip-collar and half choking the dog is going to teach the dog how to heel ...

And as the owner of a working dog, you need to acquire an understanding of what represents good discipline ...

Good discipline starts with:

(a) The owner learning proper & efficient training methods.

(b) The owner accepting that he/she has to train & teach the dog, what is required of the dog.

(c) The owner starting and carrying out proper training in a positive & consistent way ...

And with the above ... the dog is taught and allowed to learn and understand what is required of it ... Basically, with good discipline - a dog is not reprimanded, unless it is first taught what to do (or not to do) ... Good discipline enhances your dog's learning and understanding, and is never implimented just to punish.

Then of course, there is the question of how and what kind of reprimand is acceptable, good and proper ... the current training trends tend to shy away from physical and coporal type punishments ... A good owner will aquaint him/herself with all methods and make educated decision as to what is best for his/her dog.

You posted: Will this go away?

Well ... to my mind, NO ... it is not going to go away by itself without your help, effort, time & training ...

You have acquired a dog that is intelligent with strong personality ... and unless you now teach, train & show your dog how to utilise its intelligence and drives in the correct way ... the dog will simply apply its intelligence & drives as dictated by its instincts.

And the way a dog applies its intelligence & drives instinctively may not be acceptable if the dog is also expected to co-exist symbiotically & happily within a family and/or urban environment ...

If your dog is the result of good responsible breeding, then your dog will possess all the potential required to be a "loving" dog ... As owner, it is now your responsibility to learn all you can about dog behaviour & how to teach & train your pup ... so that you help your pup unlock and release all her potential - to be loving, to be calm ... to be happy ...

As I mentioned in reply to your other posting ... your idea of getting in touch with your local schutzhund club, is a positive step.

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Mar 22, 2004, 9:02 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Mar 22, 2004, 11:40 PM

Post #7 of 22 (7949 views)
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Re: [Sissy] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi,

Blush I'm from Penang, Malaysia. Local i mean Malaysia....sorry to get u confused......

Prey is necessary for a sport dog, it is require to use this drive to train the dog without must pressure or the 'fun way'. Yes, you're right, a working line gsd shold breed with strong nerve, temperament, drives and etc........

I have to agree with Surchinmy, may be your breeder meant to be :-

- obedient train the puppy the positive way or motivational training, rewards for the desireable behaviours only....eg, food, treat, praise the pup when she do the right think.

- operant conditioning, like if the dog do the right think, then rewards, else no rewards. Remember not to purnish the dog at this point in time. Let her be a dog till about 10-12 months old before u proceed with the more formal OB training. In this way u r not ruin the pup's drive development.

Generally u can bring up the pup in 2 ways :-

1. Like what i mentioned above, do more on control work, meaning obedient training from puppyhood to junior dog (10 - 12 months depend on bloodline, some could up to 18 months to get 'mature'). Protection, bite work all come ONLY when u have 101% control on the dog. If the dog has drive in it, it won't go away if u didn't correct him/her at the wrong timing.

2. Alternatively u can follow Flinks' way, which is doing drives promotion during puppyhood. For a new owner of working dog, if you're not sure what u r doing or promoting the wrong way, u will get a dog that belong to a trash.

In Reply To


I'll tell you that much. I don't want to hurt her, but she's not getting the point. Again tonite, there was biting and gnashing and she goes off and sulks. Not a very loving puppy. Will this go away?

U may want to tell her that u r the leader of the pack, so my 2 cents is u can bring her out to the new place that she never been to before and turn her around, the 4 paws face up and ur hand hold her on the chest and let her 'fight for trying to get out of that position'....some dog may just lay there as it is and some will fight for survivor.....so at the end, u need to hold her for like 5 to 10 seconds without her moving or fight back, the let her go off and praise her....this is to show her that u r the alpha and not her.....

alternatively u can hold her neck and shake her gentle (strong enough) like how the mother bite the puppy's neck and shake when they did something wrong....a 7 weeks old pup should be able to warm/correct with this way.......

I'm new in working GSD too, just got my pup 1 week ago, he is 15 weeks not, out of Warkos Anrebri x Fella z Pohranicni Straze CS. 100% czech product....he is showing defence drive now....what a suprise....and he has got prey and extreme food drive........u can check it out under Schutzhund Section under the thread 'Schutzhund Dog - The Making'

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Sissy
Novice


Mar 23, 2004, 5:24 AM

Post #8 of 22 (7940 views)
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Re: [boon] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Well, I thank you both, I am not sure I feel any better about the situation, we all have to go back to work and school, today, leaving the pup alone for the first time.

She definetely is having some of the dominance issues and we will all work thru that together. Got to go!


PSD
ALPHA


Mar 24, 2004, 10:38 AM

Post #9 of 22 (7925 views)
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Re: [Sissy] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Sissy,

Bastin is a wonderful dog but Minkatel is not known. Can u list down at least 2 generations of Minkatel so that we may know where her lines goes back to?

Your pups sounds like a normal healthy puppies trying to learn what the spiny ivory in the mouth is for...heheheh. In that age they bites at anything and everything. It all depends on what you want out of the pups. If it is just normal pet you wanted then just stop that with immediate effect. However if you want to go into protection training later then divert the bites into interesting chew toys keeping on moving the toy so that the toy is more intersting than your hands or legs.

BTW, No dogs is a born Schutzhund dog. A schutzhund dog is molded from the right raw drive that the dog already genetically have. So to your question if this is a schutzhund thing...then the answer is NO.

Anyway, in my opinion. U had your dog for a week and now she is 7 weeks old. Meaning u got your dog at 6 weeks old. This is not in the best interest of the dog. They should be with their litter mates until 8 weeks at least to learn naturally.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Sissy
Novice


Mar 24, 2004, 6:40 PM

Post #10 of 22 (7920 views)
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Re: [PSD] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
my baby's pedigree, as you might be able to tell, we have established who is boss, and the most remarkable thing is, she is able to play and mouth, and yet, she knows not to bite too hard! We almost have the "sit", and if there is cheese, we definetely have the "come". A very intelligent dog, indeed!



CALL*334-624-7413


PSD
ALPHA


Mar 25, 2004, 6:00 PM

Post #11 of 22 (7913 views)
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Re: [Sissy] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Sissy,

You have a very interesting dog there. Minkatel have a strong lineage indeed. From the drives u describe sounds like a great dog if you know how to channel it. I noted you are joining a Schutzhund club and that is one very good idea to get started. Good luck with this wonderful pup.Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Hogan
Novice

May 30, 2004, 4:51 AM

Post #12 of 22 (7697 views)
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Re: [boon] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Boon

I am new to this forum. I am a working line GSD enthusiast from Brisbane Australia.

I would like to know about your puppy out of Warkos Anrebri and Fella ZPS. This is a litter that interested me immensely.

How did you come to get this pup?

What colour is your pup?

What is he/she like?

Regards

Hogan


boon
Doggyman


May 30, 2004, 8:36 AM

Post #13 of 22 (7686 views)
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Re: [Hogan] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Hogan,

nice to have another working gsd people on board, i got my pup from Aust too.....he is now about 6 months old and doing fine.........i call him Bosco.

He is dark sable and huge in size and structure.........

write me @ and we will talk more about this..............:)

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Hogan
Novice

May 30, 2004, 6:14 PM

Post #14 of 22 (7674 views)
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Re: [boon] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi BoonSmile

Thanks for contacting me. I will tell you a bit about myself.

I occasionally breed working line GSDs as a hobby. I only have one bitch. She is about 90% DDR. I bought her for schutzhund, but I haven't got time to train her much now unfortunately. Actually she wasn't well suited to Schutzhund, more suited to security work. These days I train with some security guards.

I produced my first litter from her 12 months ago. 2 females went to breeders in Melbourne, 1 to a security guard, 1 to the Queensland Police, and 1 to a business man from Hong Kong who wanted a personal protection dog, and unfortunately one of the girls was way too soft for working so I sold her as a pet.

Apart from the pet one, the others all show good drives, very strong nerves, and they bite well. The Police want a puppy from the next litter which will be a repeat mating. I take that as a good compliment, as I have heard of them rejecting pups and dogs that were produced by some big name kennels with really flash pedigrees because they didn't measure up when the going got tough.

I am really interested in the Czech lines as I gather that they are far more civil (ie will bite a person for real if necessary) than the German sports lines which rely mostly on prey drive to get them through. The Czech lines seem to be the best preservation of all that was good in the DDR lines, big bone structure, dark pigment, calm and manageable, very strong nerves, being nice natured dogs until provoked and then having genuine fight drive.

Unfortunately Czech dogs are rare in Australia, and their owners usually will not sell pups with papers in Australia. Most will not let you use their stud dogs either. I made some enquiries about the litter your pup is from, but I was unable to buy one with papers.

Tell me about your pup.

Regards

Hogan


boon
Doggyman


May 30, 2004, 9:14 PM

Post #15 of 22 (7672 views)
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Re: [Hogan] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Hogan,

You are most welcome to email me for the details.Smile and FYI, my pup is come with full ANKC registration.

you may also get in touch with PSD, Polluxx, Azman and many more who joined in this discussion section. and PSD owns a MINK line bitch. Interesting??Wink

more to come and way to go.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Hogan
Novice

May 31, 2004, 2:58 AM

Post #16 of 22 (7657 views)
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Re: [boon] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Boon

I would like to e-mail you, but I don't know your address. The personal message function has been disabled so how do I give you my e-mail address without it being out there for everyone??

Oh the problems of being a new guy on the block! I still don't know how to use this forum properly.Blush

IF we ever get to exchange e-mail addresses I look forward to telling you more about my kennel, and hearing about your boy.

Do you belong to a schutzhund club?

Regards

Hogan


PSD
ALPHA


Jun 1, 2004, 7:00 PM

Post #17 of 22 (7604 views)
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Re: [Hogan] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hogan,

Howdy, Nice to see you on the board. Mind sharing more about your DDR female? The pedigree if u can and the stud that u used in your last litter. Interesting the way u describe them.

I'm nuts for czech dogs as well and I find them generally more civil too in a sense of willing to take a fight to a human challenge. However much must still be done to take them to that heights. The mentioned qualities isnt much like an all Czech are producing those.....Personally I find that a bit misleading cause I had seen Czechs that are soft, weak bones, poor drives and unstable too. In short, good dogs are not that easy to find nowadays.

I had a friend in UK which has a show lines UK Alsatians crossed with a German Working line and tht is one dog which I termed as a super dog for real and as he does sports and he produces multiple strong dogs for the police use around the world.

Can I contact u for more info?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Jun 1, 2004, 7:21 PM

Post #18 of 22 (7600 views)
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Re: [Hogan] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Hogan,

my little devil also very fierce and aggresive....too much of a dog may be.....

PSD : u like to hear this yeah....1 step closer for ur 'goal' lio...hahhahaha

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Jun 1, 2004, 7:26 PM

Post #19 of 22 (7599 views)
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Re: [boon] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
HMMMM...... I'm waiting very...very patiently....lolTongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Al
Novice

Jun 2, 2004, 12:01 AM

Post #20 of 22 (7589 views)
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Re: [PSD] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To

I'm nuts for czech dogs as well and I find them generally more civil too in a sense of willing to take a fight to a human challenge. However much must still be done to take them to that heights. The mentioned qualities isnt much like an all Czech are producing those.....Personally I find that a bit misleading cause I had seen Czechs that are soft, weak bones, poor drives and unstable too. In short, good dogs are not that easy to find nowadays.
 Quite a notable observation. Eastern bloc dogs may have been good at that time when communism reigned though the communists made use of these dogs againts their very own people. Again, the popularity of the Eastern dogs paved the way for their near destruction that even my Czech partner cleared that the good dogs are just in the hands of some unknown smaller kennels including his. The fabled Pohranicni Straze lines, which he helped created during his directorship, is not that fabulous anymore. At a time, former East Germans wanted to rebuild the Berlin wall to save their dogs. I heard that it will be very difficult to buy DDRs since they don't allow selling their dogs out of their borders. Lucky for me I acquired my DDRs of old blood before that "prohibition". We do real work just like in the olden days with Czech, pure DDRs and Slovak dogs and though they may be far better off than their western counterparts as Hogan noted, rarely can one see the humanlike intelligence that the GSDs were once noted for. For some, we had to do serious stability work to make them calm and stable, needed for real work.


Hogan
Novice

Jun 2, 2004, 2:34 AM

Post #21 of 22 (7576 views)
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Re: [Al] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Al, PSD, and Boon,

e-mail me on the following address and I will give you some details. I realise that this e-mail address will probably get spammed to death, but it's OK, I won't use it anymore if it happens, and I will e-mail my alternative e-mail address if you e-mail me.

If you contact me I will give you pedigree info etc. I think you will find the pedigree and stud dog info interesting.

Use davidjohnhogan@hotmail.com

If I don't reply for a few days, don't worry, I will. I am a police recruit in training so sometimes it is hard to get time, but I will reply.

I think you will find that most people outside of europe who buy Czech dogs only get the rejects, with a very few exceptions, so we see weak boned dogs with poor temperaments etc

Contact me soon guys



Regards



Hogan


PSD
ALPHA


Jun 4, 2004, 1:08 AM

Post #22 of 22 (7533 views)
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Re: [Hogan, Al] TOO AGGRESSIVE??? [In reply to] Can't Post
I think you will find that most people outside of europe who buy Czech dogs only get the rejects, with a very few exceptions, so we see weak boned dogs with poor temperaments etc


True....very true....what I wrote earlier was to put up the point that just because they are Czech's.....they are not automaticly certified super dogsSly. Will mail u.



Al, I agree with what u wrote there.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

 
 




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