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Train 2 behaviours at once ... ???





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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 10, 2004, 2:25 AM

Post #1 of 56 (3624 views)
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Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Can't Post

Hi ...

This is most interesting ... something new ... well, it's new for me ...Tongue ...



by: Karen Pryor
Train two behaviors at once? Teach two cues simultaneously? How? Why? Teaching certain cues in pairs can speed up the learning process, as well as teaching a dog a concept that it can apply to new learning.

Choose two behaviors that are opposites: step forward/step backward, over/under, and paw/nose, for example. Click and treat them alternately so that the very clear difference between the behaviors, and their cues, becomes one more piece of information for the dog. Teaching a dog discrimination by training paired, opposite behaviors moves learning along so quickly, you may find yourself establishing behaviors and cues in a single session.

To do so, however, you need to capture or provoke two distinct behaviors. Take the paired, opposite behaviors of bark/quiet. To put both on cue quickly and simultaneously, try the following steps:
  • Begin when the dog is barking. It is handy to have a barky dog. If you need to provoke the behavior, however, a knock on a nearby door or table will usually set off a barker.
  • Click, give a treat, and, as the dog is swallowing, startle the dog by making a "Stop" hand signal in front of its face (or any other signal that you know will focus the dog's attention.) The dog will react with a little sign of surprise; perhaps an anxious look, maybe a slight calming signal such as a head turn.
  • At that instant of response in surprise, click and again treat. (Hold treats in your clicker hand, for this stunt.) The dog eats the treat.
  • Now wait until the dog barks again (or provoke a bark if necessary). Click, treat, hand gesture, click, treat; repeat.


So, what's happening? You are provoking the behavior of barking (or, better yet, the dog is barking spontaneously), and you are reinforcing it. You are then provoking another, opposite behavior, and reinforcing it. There are no cues established yet; just two opposite behaviors which you are clicking and treating alternately.

Note that you are not alternately clicking and reinforcing barking and the absence of barking. Paired cues work not as present/absent cues, but do this/do that cues. In the case of Bark/Quiet, you are reinforcing barking and its opposite, the tiny response of surprise however your dog expressed it-a flinch or head turn or lifted ear-that you provoked with a "Stop" hand signal. The dog may have perceived it as "Close my mouth" or "Turn my head" (with mouth closed as part of it) or "Duck" or "Look worried" or whatever it was doing that was marked by the click and earned the reinforcer. But it definitely did something, and you clicked that something.

What's next?
  • When two behaviors begin to look the least little bit operant, that is, you see the dog beginning to do them with some awareness, then add the verbal cue "Bark!" to the bark.
  • Use the hand signal as a cue for "Look silently" or "Mouth shut."
  • Build duration on the anti-bark behavior (whatever your dog has offered and you have reinforced).
  • Transfer the hand signal to a verbal cue, "Quiet," or "Silence, please," whenever the behavior and cue are well established.
Cheers Smile


aragorn2976
Ultra ALPHA


Mar 10, 2004, 2:34 AM

Post #2 of 56 (3622 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow.. ShockedShocked

You are right.. This is absolutely interesting... TongueTongue

I haven't tried clicker training before, but I'd guess this technique is very suited with the clicker.... Otherwise, I'm wondering, how am I going to apply it to our "traditional" training??



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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 10, 2004, 5:10 AM

Post #3 of 56 (3616 views)
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Re: [aragorn2976] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Yeah ... that's what I thought originally when I first read it - needs a clicker ... but having read it again ... I think it's possible to do it without the clicker ... Although the clicker makes it easier, the key elements to the procedure can be achieved without the clicker ...

But if you haven't tried the clicker (especially because you seem very interested in training) - you should ... it really is a lot of fun ...

Cheers Smile


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 10, 2004, 9:20 PM

Post #4 of 56 (3607 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, this is interesting. Only afraid my rascals will be too eager to obey BARK and then conveniently ignore QUIET, hahahaha. Anyway, my doggies training seems to be getting very basic and casual. Must be the lazy trainer concentrating on their habits in their environment rather than responses to commands. Maybe it is time to buy another book on training. Best regards,J


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 10, 2004, 11:34 PM

Post #5 of 56 (3605 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Ah ... your concern is that your little doggies might not obey the command for "quiet" ... Tongue ...

Well, K.Pryor was one of the first (if not the first) to introduce clicker training to dogs & she does have extensive experience training a variety of animals, including dolphins ... So, if she believes it works - I will go along with that and suggest (if you are interested) to give it a try - and maybe be pleasantly surprised ... when you Beagles learn when not to bark ... Smile ...

I might give it a go with one of our doggies ... and see how ... At worse, it will be a learning for me, and I'm rather intrigued by this concept of training 2 behaviours in the same sequence.

Cheers

PS ... Maybe you'd like to check this one out ... Have always liked Skete Monks ... this revised edition is supposed to incorporate the changes in training trends since the 1st edition ... http://www.amazon.com/.../104-2843090-5985532


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 11, 2004, 5:53 PM

Post #6 of 56 (3594 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, I guess I am not ambitious about my doggies training. So far I have only focused on the basics which I hope will be a firm foundation.

Toilet training looks like still a work in progress. It wasnt going well for a while when the weather was hotter around the start of the year. The doggies often reverted to resting around the drain which was cooler and pooping around the crate, which was the other way around. So, I tiled the whole area including where the pond used to be, which is the cooler end. That is where they take their day naps and peeing is consistently at the drain now. A coffee table and a bench to take cover under also helped. Fancy all that, hahaha.

I am working at the pooping which is still free style. I observed that at 8 months old they do their duty when they wake up and at 8-9 hour later. The trouble is they wont leave their poop alone and will mess up afterwards. Walking them earlier in the afternoon at 4pm worked to preempt the afternoon pooping. I woke up at 6.00am this morning trying to preempt their early morning indoor bombing session but that was still too late. My guess now is that all the noise outside from school buses and newspaper delivery, wake them up early. I have already tried taking them out at 10pm to poop before they sleep but they still wake up very early and need to bomb first thing. So, now I may have to wake up at 5.00am or sound-proof the garden, hahahaha. Hope it will get better as they grow older and their bowel control improves. Any suggestions?

Wah, so lenghty on toilet training. I guess that is central to a happy co-existance. They will consistently respond to SIT command so that is one reliable element. It is SIT to me but probably FEED ME to them, hahaha. The COME recall only works when they are attentive but they are easily distracted by scrapes on the ground and other dogs. I will move on to DOWN and STAY next. So you see training 2 behaviours at once seems advanced. Maybe just a slow trainer, hahaha. Will be interested to hear on your progress tho. Best regards,J


snoopydog
Enthusiast

Mar 11, 2004, 8:18 PM

Post #7 of 56 (3590 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi J,

If it's any consolation, thought you might want to know that Beagles are known to play with their poop (according to some articles I read somewhere). Mine does too. I've been trying to break her habit for the last 1.5 years, but no luck, not even when I catch her "red-handed". So, the only thing I try to do is to pick it up as soon as she does her business. I've run out of ideas already.

As for obedience, Bodhi was surprisingly easy to train for a beagle. Especially with positive training methods. I found that Bodhi responded very well with the "soft approach" rather than the "hard approach" (if there's such a term). I wonder if all beagles are like that? Yes, a Beagle is an extremely subborn breed and there are days when she just will not pay attention. I think that's perfectly ok. Even humans have off-days too, right? But once you get them started, you'll be surprised how quickly they learn. My two-cents worth of advice is, continue to focus on the basics - i.e. your sits, downs, stays, stand & recall...and you'll have two very liveable beagles. Once they've mastered that, make your training even more fun for them. For example, build on the basic commands and play games with them - e.g. fetch, jump, tricks etc. Maybe even try agility. I think dogs in general will willingly do things if there's some fun in it. Every moment is a training opportunity. For example, whenever there's a commercial break or something like that, I'll make Bodhi do something. And if she's lying quietly, I praise her like mad and even give a small treat. Although she ever so playful and hyperactive, she has improved so much from her puppy days.

With you, I'm sure Sparky and Picnic are in the right hands. Good luck and remember, make it fun for them. Let beagles be beagles! Smile.


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 11, 2004, 9:37 PM

Post #8 of 56 (3586 views)
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Re: [snoopydog] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, well said as a true Beagler. Yes, thanks for the assurances and encouragement. Playing with poop is a messy and irritating habit. But like yourself I dont see any short and easy solution. I have noticed that my 2 rascals willingly do their duty on grass so I am hoping that I can time their walks to minimise the cleaning inside. So far, I have figured out how to avoid a mess in the course of a day. And I am trying to push my luck with the early morning session, hahahaha.

I have also had the same experience with training them. They are fast to learn and very resistant to compulsion. Great attitude I think, hahaha. And I would go along with your style of sticking to the basics and having fun. Indeed, let beagles be beagles. Best regards,J


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 11, 2004, 11:30 PM

Post #9 of 56 (3582 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Yeaps ... same same here - training basics is good enough for us too ... Although there is one element that we work on quite seriously ... a command that immediately recalls ALL our dogs ... For obvious reasons, we feel more secure knowing that we have such a command ... If you are interested in this ... drop me a line.

Free-style, aptly describes Beagles ...

Okay ... let's see if I get your your doggies "premises" correctly: ... They are out-door but sheltered ... their primary living area (when not on lenghty jogs around the world) is a secured & tiled area next to the drain where they are supposed to eliminate ... They also have a crate.

I will also assume ... (a) They share a common crate ... (b) ... They are still fed twice a day ... (b) They are not eating but only playing with the poop.

Suggestions??? ... Hmmm ...

Fact to accept: At 8 months, they are getting close to having full bowel control ... and unless you come up with a new element to change it ... the situation may become routine and habit for the Beagles ... and continue. And the danger is, if dogs play with poop, it's a very short step to eating the poop ... and then it becomes more difficult ...

Problem/issue: They poop early ... and mess up their poop before anyone else is up. Dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to get up at 5am just to catch dog poop ... Tongue ...

Possible solution: So, I figure the solution is to either (a) get the dogs to poop later ... or (b) train them not to play with poop ... (c) or both, but in the correct sequence ... whatever works easiest ...

I think getting them to poop later is the natural first step ... otherwise you'll have to get up early enough to catch them at their first poop ... But if you can get them to poop at a decent later time, then you can more easily train them not to mess with poop.

Getting some control over poop time:

(A) Control feeding & drinking: As you have discovered, dogs with developed bowels will need to eliminate about 8 hrs after the last meal ...

Maybe you can try what we do ... (i) We feed main meal in the morning ... (ii) We limit water intake after 8pm or so ... Taken together ... by bed time (approx:11/12pm) our dogs have very much emptied their bladders and bowels ... and they quite happily wait till 7.30am the next day.

Your dogs can probably make do with one meal from about 11 to 12 months ... But if you feed twice, then maybe move the 2nd meal earlier ... so that they have the 8hrs before bedtime ...

(B) Reinforce the dogs' basic instinct of not pooping where they sleep and eat:

(i) Revert to Crate Training: To my mind ... best and easiest way (in limited space) to control time of elimination when people are not around is to - crate train the dogs ...

If a dog is taught that his/her crate is the their den, refuge and sleep place ... then as long as the dog is in the crate ... it will instinctively hold elimination (within reason) until released ... Once the concept & instinct is encouraged and grounded, the concept of the crate can be safely enlarged to be a open sleeping area or a room ...

So, you might want to teach your dogs to accept their crate as a den (best to get them individual crates) ... control timing of food & water intake and confine them to their crates at night ... keep fingers crossed ... and condition them to hold elimination until you release them at a decent time in the morning.

If you try this method ... you will have to begin by ... (a) Providing individual crates of the correct size, not small but also not too big (or they will poop in the corner of the crate) ... (b) Releasing them early (at their current waking up & pooping time) and then gradually & slowly re-condition them by delaying the release time by 10minutes or so until you reach your decent hour ...

How fast or slow this takes, depends on your dogs ... The key to this method is to do it so slowly - so that you minimise mistakes & don't force your dogs to eliminate in the crate.

But if you haven't taught your dogs to crate when young, you will probably have to put up with them struggling and fighting the crate for a while ... before they get used to it ...

(ii) Moving sleeping area away???: If you are not inclined to the above, then maybe you can try moving their sleeping area further away from the drain ... and make their resting/sleeping place very different & more comfortable than the area around the drain. The concept remains the same - basically trying to teach the dogs to identify and associate a particular place for a particular purpose.

Save and except for elimination, they are not allowed to do anything like play or eat anywhere near the elimination/drain area ... Everytime after elimination, they are encouraged by recall, praise & reward to move immediately away from the elimination area ... That way, you may be able to sufficiently condition your dogs to move away from the drain area after elimination, even when no one is around.

But I think it's difficult to achieve any consistency with this method ... it might work, if you change their sleeping area to a totally different area ... otherwise the routine may already be too set for a minor change in sleep area to make any difference to the dogs.

Personally, with your your circumstances in mind, and with Beagles - I'd go with controlling food & water times, and simultaneously crate training ...

What we did was ... start our puppies with crate training to reinforced the instinct not to eliminate in their sleeping area ... once that instinct was encouraged and habit grounded ... we started leving the crate doors open (they would return into their crates quite willingly) ... and eventually we removed the crates altogether just leaving their bedding ... and now they will not eliminate in the doggy room ... and wait for release in the morning ...

*Whisper* ... except our Beagle, who still has her crate ...

Cheers Smile


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 12, 2004, 10:27 PM

Post #10 of 56 (3571 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, thanks vm for your ideas. Read your reply many times to think it through.

Yes, poop catching at 5am is a non-starter. Actually I feel it in my bones that this challenge has a solution if we can just solve the puzzle. Basically, my puppies have good instincts. They have never pooped or peed in their crate. And they willingly do their duty on grass during their walks. They dont poop everything indoors in the early mornings and hold the big job for the walk later. So I suspect they feel the urge to poop but still prefer to do it outside. I am not sure they can hold it for another 1-2 hours.

I had thought it wasn't a good idea to feed them once a day at 8 months old. Do you think 3/4 of their food in the morning around 8am and 1/4 earlier in the afternoon around 3pm is ok? Do I have to restrict their water at night if their peeing isnt a problem or will that also affect their pooping?

I have used a crate in their toilet-training but they have not been crate trained. They seem to prefer sleeping under the table, at a corner or out in the open instead of the crate. However, they are not averse to the crate. They remain quiet when crated for 1/2 hour while I wash their area and fetch the children to school before their walk. When I had 2 compartments to prevent them fighting they still prefered to sleep together in the same small compartment. Is it ok to crate them together?

I originally thought this problem would be easier handled when the doggies are older at 1 year, but now also concerned that it may form into a bad habit which would be difficult to break. Er, I am not confident of trying to prevent their poop playing and eating habit. Beagles dont have a good record here and I have observed that their poop smell very much like the kibble they eat. They can vacuum all the food and leave a pip of garlic behind, so there goes the garlic solution. I have seen pills on sale to prevent their poop eating but would prefer not to use chemicals.

Thanks again and wish us luck, heheheh. Best regards,J


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 12, 2004, 11:51 PM

Post #11 of 56 (3568 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Will reply to your queries & points ... easiest first ... Tongue ...

(a) Garlic - Yes, we prefer fresh garlic too ... crush the garlic cloves and then mix well into the food - that way they cannot pick. Can also disquise smell of garlic by adding a little bit of honey or squeeze of lemon juice into the food.

(b) Crating together ... With pups, it's okay ... but I would personally hesitate at crating 2 adults together, more for safety than anything else - just in case they have a disagreement ... and in event of disagreement, I'd rather not have the dogs confined in the same crate, with no room to move and evade. But you will know the temperament of your dogs best.

(c) Feeding @3pm ... I think for Beagles at 8/9 months ... you can certainly give the main meal in the morning with a lighter meal in the afternoon @ 3pm ... that should be okay.

(d) Peeing & relationship to pooping ... My feeling is - if you are trying and train the dogs to poop at the correct time, I would also control the water too - at least initially ... So, if the dogs make a mistake and poop at the wrong time - I won't have to sit & scratch head - trying to figure out whether the accidential poop was caused by a need to poop, or a need to poop brought about by need to pee ... *LOL* ...

Later on in the training, when things are more settled - you can reintroduce the water if you wish.

(e) Poop eating/playing - Yes, unfortnately you are right ... Beagles have a pretty bad record with this ... Adding Keepers' Mix seems to be receiving much recommendation ... Keepers' Mix helps with proper digestion and provides trace elements (the lacking of which may be encouraging poop eating) ... maybe you can give it a try. Can order from forum.

(f) Basis of suggestions ... I based my suggestions on the following (a) A dogs' strong instinct not to poop where they sleep ... (b) A dog's remarkable ability to tell time (without a watch Tongue) ... and (c) the fact that dogs, are creatures of habit and routine ... if we can but set & ground a routine, the dogs will (most of the time) follow that routine.

When a dog is pooping at 5am, it's hard to be there to train the dog not to play with poop ... Much easier to use the basics above, to train the dog not to poop until release from sleeping area.

Hence the suggestion to (i) crate train (to teach the dogs that they have a specific sleeping area)... (ii) control food & water intake (to help reduce need to eliminate at wrong time or place) ... and (c) the "delay sequence" (to bring pooping time back to a decent hour).

As long as the basic rational is maintained ... you can modify the suggestions to suit your circumstances ... For eg: If the dogs naturally prefer to sleep under the table, then maybe instead of using crate/s - confine/fence of the area under the table instead and identify that as the sleeping area ... and teach the dogs not to poop there - until release.

You posted: " ... Basically, my puppies have good instincts. They have never pooped or peed in their crate. And they willingly do their duty on grass during their walks. They dont poop everything indoors in the early mornings and hold the big job for the walk later. So I suspect they feel the urge to poop but still prefer to do it outside. I am not sure they can hold it for another 1-2 hours ..."

Hmmm ... I think that's very good ... because, if you are correct, then your dogs are only pooping because they are still unable to fully control or hold their poop ... And if so, then the whole matter may be resolved when you reduce the amount of the 2nd meal, and thus, reduce pressure on bowels in the morning ... Not forgetting that their ability to control bowel movement might still improve over the next couple of months.

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by Khoobg on Mar 15, 2004, 9:42 PM)


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 13, 2004, 12:38 AM

Post #12 of 56 (3565 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, thanks for thinking through this with me. Sure will relief the patch on my head where I have been scratching the past few weeks, hehehe. I feel good about this. Today I have shifted their walk and evening meal to 3pm. Tonight I will keep their water bottle at 8pm and take them out at 10pm to eliminate. Then I will confine them under the coffee table. The table is 3x3feet and just fits into those 3 feet adjustable wire fences. Will leave a nice floor mat and their plastic chew bones to make it comfortable. Hope they wont complain too verbally. Tomorrow morning I will let them out early at 6.30am and gradually stretch the time. With the school holidays next week, I can time the morning release without constraints. And tomorrow onwards I will feed 3/4 in the morning and 1/4 in the afternoon. Wish me luck, hehehe. Best regards,J


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 13, 2004, 1:28 AM

Post #13 of 56 (3563 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

All the best ... Smile


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 13, 2004, 11:10 PM

Post #14 of 56 (3556 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, glad to report that it has gone well so far. I havent had to scrub and wash since yesterday early morning when I normally have to, once or twice daily.

Picnic did small soft jobs with pooping on the 3pm walk and 10pm excursion. So, I think she can probably hold for a later afternoon walk. It can be scorching hot that early. Sparky didnt poop at 3pm but did 2 small jobs indoors 8-9pm. Not too bad - one near the newspaper and the other spot on. But he made a snack of the one off the mark. He abstained at 10pm. Perhaps Sparky is tuned for a later session at 4-5pm. And it looks like he can hold his own through the night.

As planned, I crated them for the night. They seemed to have settled for the coffee table so no persuasion was needed. Not a whimper when I confined them under the table with the wire fence, Wow. They just went back to sleep and were quiet till release at 6.30am, rah rah rah. I really had it easy. Everything was clean in the morning and they were not even urgent when I took them out.

They were cool about being crated, phew. I crated them together cos they seem to prefer being together when they rest. It looked like they can hold their bowels a bit longer with the new arrangements. I think I will try to delay walking them till 4pm today. Today they will only get 1/4 of their food in the afternoon. Continue to remove their water at 8pm and let them out to eliminate at 10pm. And will release them 5 minutes later every morning. Hope to get to 7.20am by the time school reopens. I guess I will continue crating them till the habit sets and they are older at a year old. Hope it is not too early to affirm that Beagles can be crate and toilet trained easily. Anyway, I am still keeping my fingers crossed for the next sessions. Thanks and best regards,J


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 14, 2004, 1:25 AM

Post #15 of 56 (3551 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Great - well done ... SmileLaugh ...

Just a couple of thoughts ...

(a) If Picnic has "soft" poops at 3pm ... it could be because morning meal has a little too much food for her ... so, maybe you'd like to cut back on the morning meal just a little and see how it goes ... And poop eating can throw the bowel timing off ... if you can stop them snacking on poop - that would be good. Besides, it's never too early to try and stop the poop eating habit ...

(b) I think you can walk them in the evening when its cooler ... I don't think the timing of the walks will make any major difference to your recheduling of poop times ... If you can get them to poop before sleep - that will probably be enough.

Hugs to the pups ... Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Mar 14, 2004, 1:27 AM)


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 14, 2004, 7:08 AM

Post #16 of 56 (3546 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, day 2 and all is still going well. They are quietly crated for the night again. Picnic just didnt poop in the afternoon despite a 2 1/2 km walk from 330-5pm. But it looked like she really didnt have to. They both pooped when I let them out at 10pm before sleeping, so everything is on track again, phew.

About the soft poop - normally it is dry and firm except for the very end. The soft bit at the end sort of tells me that the job is done. Anyway, it isnt cos I fed them too much this morning cos I forgot to thaw extra, hehehe. But made sure to do it right for tomorrow morning.

I think you are right that the timing of the afternoon walk doesnt really matter. So I will avoid anyone getting sunstroke. Stop them snacking on poop - I will need to do some poop catching when indoors. That is not easy cos they will poop when we turn away. My best chance is to time their pooping with taking them out, to avoid any opportunity for them to do it. Best regards,J


a_evie
Doggyman


Mar 15, 2004, 9:06 PM

Post #17 of 56 (3534 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

read ur progress...sounds good and fun!

too bad i don;t have a garden...otherwise, it does sound liek agood idea to do what you've done in your garden. now i havee still to contend myslef to clean the bathroom daily. the little girl would still pee on her papers when we are not at home...and yes, play and eat her poo somedays too...

i am so out of idea what makes her eat her poo sometimes. i really wonder whether she eats her poo coz she is hungry...but again she has so much to eat and is gaining her pounds really quick.

another forum i subscribe to encourages the use of meat tenderizers. am so upset with her poo eating...i just bought myself some meat tenderizers for tonight's meal..

she generally would peepoo outside when we go walkies but somehow she will still need to poo indoors too. strange....


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 15, 2004, 11:23 PM

Post #18 of 56 (3525 views)
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Re: [a_evie,surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Evie, thanks for taking an interest. Sorry to burst the bubble. Day 3 ended badly and it looks like we are back to square one. The doggies didnt make it till the 10pm poop call before bedtime. When I came back home from roaming 1Utama, I was met with a poop mess. I think it was a mistake to assume that since they had pooped they didnt need to go outside before sleeping. They pooped in their sleeping area where they were confined overnight. And they still had more to do during the morning walk later. Only 6 hours later, they poop all over again when I was out for lunch. So I have had to soap and scrub 3 times in the past 16 hours. Maybe they are taking revenge for being crated. Anyway, I will persist with some modifications. Looks like this thread is turning into a diary of a poop scientist. Best regards,J


a_evie
Doggyman


Mar 16, 2004, 1:34 AM

Post #19 of 56 (3519 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

i think they were just being upset...

shalom does the most unthinkable when she is upset...almost like a revenge...but see how it goeslah...they may have eaten some extras that required more pooh sessions. anyway, they are still pups.can't expect such good muscle control yet.


jaytan
Canine Addict


Mar 16, 2004, 4:07 AM

Post #20 of 56 (3518 views)
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Re: [a_evie] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Evie, luckily they are so cute. Otherwise, I may feel like strangling them for pooping all over so often, hahaha. I am a bit disappointed but not discouraged cos I am prepared to rough it out with the 2 rascals till they mature at 1 year. Actually, they are very well behaved Beagles. Best regards,J


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 16, 2004, 8:16 AM

Post #21 of 56 (3514 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think strangling the dog is a thought that crosses the mind of all Beagle owners at some point ... that thought has certainly crossed mine many times ... TongueLaughSmile ...

But the bubble hasn't burst yet ... maybe sprung a little leak ... but still holding out ... *laughs* ...

Don't forget ... over the weekend ... you changed the food schedule, changed food amount, applied a modified form of crate training ... and started delay schedule for morning poop ... that's quite a few changes especially for pups ... and mistakes are going to happen ...

Maybe pushing them to hold elimination during the evening was just asking that little too much too soon ...

Also, all your changes (so far) are concentrated on helping sort out the morning poop ... and not for other elimination times ...

I think the most important element right now is to adjust whatever is necessary to ensure they don't poop inside their den ... to just keep reinforcing that good instinct first before attempting anything else ... Smile

Focus on making sure they poop before bedtime at 10pm, and helping them keep the den clean until release in morning ...

As for the rest of the day, unless you can be around to let them out regularly & prevent pooping in the den ... I'd not confine them to the den yet ... I think I'd rather they mess up outside the den than poop inside the den, and undo the good that is being done during the night ...

And perhaps, for the time being ... try keep their meal composition as consistent as possible ... don't introduce any new foods for the time being ... and that should help with regularise their elimination times.

One thought ... freshly prepared foods pass through a dog's system faster than kibble ... The general estimate is that a pure fresh food meal can be ready for elimination within 4 to 5 hours.

I remember you saying that you are giviing combination of fresh foods & kibble ... you might like to try giving the kibble portion in the morning and just the freshly prepared food at 3pm ... this might help them clear out their system before 10pm.

Once again all the best ... Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Mar 16, 2004, 8:21 AM)


aragorn2976
Ultra ALPHA


Mar 16, 2004, 4:56 PM

Post #22 of 56 (3508 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi...

Sorry that this reply is really late. Hv been superbusy at work... *sigh*.. Snoopy keeps me sane with her antics... Wink

Anyway, I'd have to agree with you. The clicker does help in the procedure but if the dog can differentiate the tones in the voice, am sure that you can use this to train him. Smile

Hehe.. I haven't tried clicker training though I've seen it at many pet stores. Anyway, if I do use it, I think I'll see Snoopy tilting her head from left to right because its and interesting sound...!! Laugh... I might give it a try because I think it would grab her attention.. Sly



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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 16, 2004, 6:25 PM

Post #23 of 56 (3503 views)
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Re: [aragorn2976] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ... no problems ... work has a habit of interferring with life ... *LOL*...

Yeah ... give the clicker a go ... I remember when I first tried it a few years back ... I was completely blown away by how effective it is ... Shocked

If you are interested let me know and I can send you some interesting sites etc ...

Cheers Smile


a_evie
Doggyman


Mar 16, 2004, 6:38 PM

Post #24 of 56 (3501 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

they are cute..and frankly quite angelic looking...

can't say the same for the rascal in shalom...too hypoer and too cheeky...she seems to be teasing a game out of me daily.

thre i am trying to dress up for work...and she'll start picking things for me to throw or even wear. each time a drawer or door is left open...she'll pick something for me....and waga her tail. of couse if she picks the one i want is oklah...but she has a nick to pick everything out one by one.

of course her most useful is alway...fetch mummy's bag...she would not go wronglah...since it is always placed on the bed...and she'll start dragging the beg....quite kesian but also quite a site to behold...Smile

how was this morning with the 2 furkids?


a_evie
Doggyman


Mar 16, 2004, 6:48 PM

Post #25 of 56 (3500 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

would be good if you ccould share somee here too...Blush

was informed that they are conducting clicker classes in sri hartamas...quite keen but would need to evaluate further plus verify that time constraints due to work is not an issue.

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