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Need advice & opinion





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RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Feb 26, 2004, 9:08 AM

Post #1 of 31 (2808 views)
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Need advice & opinion Can't Post

Hello all,

Really need your opinions here. I'm unsure and and an unsure owner would make a really unsure dog.

Well, my dog Tyson has been showing a little defence lately.(he's not from any working line,just the average bullmastiff pup)

The latest "incident" which got me real concerned was at Central Park during the ob and agility talk.

Tyson was a litte defensive towards a guy who held up his camera in his direction abt 15-20ft away. He just stood there and started barking,nothing more and stopped when he saw the guy move away.Or so I thought,I think the photographer must be still somewhere in that are but not immediately opposite Ty 15 ft away. He sat down and looked relaxed,panting and all, in a sense that he was no more standing,mouth closed and concentrating. He just sat and looked in the direction where the photographer was earlier.

Right after the barking and a second of sitting down, a friend came up to me said Hi to both me and Ty and tried to pet him on the head. She pet his head and he faced upwards where she petted him to get a
mouthful. Well, I didn't scold nor praise since I was confused. I didn't whether it was "good" that he could still be in a defensive mode and tried to bite? or because he was plain aggresive and "territorial" towards his space?

What should I do if the same thing happens again? I do want him to be defensive and since he's just started, I want to build his confidence but I do not want him to mistaken it for being aggresive for the wrong reasons.

Other times,which I do not mind at all are when he barks/pulls/growls at some ppl who walk oddly(and I feel uncomfortable) into our direction,once at a guy who made a loud noise,another who was holding a stick.

Thanks in advance. Your opinions/views will be greatly appreciated.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



PSD
ALPHA


Feb 27, 2004, 12:01 AM

Post #2 of 31 (2787 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Chloe,

What you are now seing is the start of his defense drive maturity. nothing wrong really as it is a matter of normal progression in a good dog. As long as his nerve n temprement is good then I wouldnt mind it. As a matter of fact, it all depends on what u want of this dog.

If eventual PP is what u want then no one have any business touching him whenever n wherever. Everyone may see but they may not touch. In fact it is an unwritten rule that good K9 ethics is never to touch another persons trained dog unless the handler allows u specifically. I have seen that this ethics is not really known concept here in Malaysia but if anyone happen to be overseas and giving commands or touching any competition dog or a Police service dog is sure going to get a big piece of yell from the handler.Tongue

To control that is actually very simple. Do it through OB. Good OB builds both bond and control. The environment and people are all a matter of distraction. Then u decide which cue he can go and defend u and which distraction he must be under control.

Few commands which must be 110% reliable is

1) recall

2) down

3) stay

Personally I chose the above 3 because if a dog is not good at recall then when he bolt to the wrong person he is not going to stop n u will be in trouble, then in the event of last minute when he is too late for recalls at least u then can down him before the contact. Stay is when u want him to keep position while u clear anyone from the danger zone but still want him to provide support if anything goes wrong.

99% of dogs will not bite if they are not trained to bite so I believe it is still safe as they will not engage. However the above 3 commands reliability will be your rescue command to stop anything from going wrong as dog like tht may not bite out of direct challenge from assailant but 99% of a normal person faced with a charging dog will run away which will activate the prey drive of a dog and the dog will bite out of prey. This is why the above 3 commands needs to be 110% reliable.

Alternatively, if PP is never in your mind and u want this dog to be a social butterfly, then the approach would then be totally diff as then u want the defense drive to be inhibited to the level of dissapearence. then the method will be diff. Let me know what u want to do.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Feb 27, 2004, 12:26 AM

Post #3 of 31 (2783 views)
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Quote
If eventual PP is what u want then no one have any business touching him whenever n wherever. Everyone may see but they may not touch. In fact it is an unwritten rule that good K9 ethics is never to touch another persons trained dog unless the handler allows u specifically. I have seen that this ethics is not really known concept here in Malaysia



noted. but will this principle apply to a sport dog in particular ? and out of curiousity, y is it so ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Feb 27, 2004, 1:10 AM

Post #4 of 31 (2779 views)
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Re: [boon] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes sports dogs and high level OB dog included.

Reason..... All of heaven comes through the handler. I hope not to derive at the rights or wrongs or its moral implications to humanity issue but perfectly dependable high level dogs in sports n in serious protection n police n military service dogs are not conditioned to think how wonderful to be the prettiest social butterfly in the crowd. They are there for serious work and that always has to come from the handler's instruction. So all attention n focus must be on the handler and no one else.

Again hope this is not turned into a political issue as I only do my best to explain not propagate any ideas.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Feb 27, 2004, 1:10 AM

Post #5 of 31 (2779 views)
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Re: [boon] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes sports dogs and high level OB dog included.

Reason..... All of heaven comes through the handler. I hope not to derive at the rights or wrongs or its moral implications to humanity issue but perfectly dependable high level dogs in sports n in serious protection n police n military service dogs are not conditioned to think how wonderful to be the prettiest social butterfly in the crowd. They are there for serious work and that always has to come from the handler's instruction. So all attention n focus must be on the handler and no one else.

Again hope this is not turned into a political issue as I only do my best to explain not propagate any ideas.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Feb 27, 2004, 1:19 AM

Post #6 of 31 (2776 views)
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Quote
Again hope this is not turned into a political issue as I only do my best to explain not propagate any ideas.



hi PSD,

no worry, this is a matter of different point of view/stand point/ground.......so the dog is belongs to the person and no one should pat without ur permission.

no worry not harsh and i think puppycomer will undestand.Tongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Feb 27, 2004, 1:30 AM

Post #7 of 31 (2775 views)
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Re: [boon] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon,

Dogs belongs to which owner is not the issue. The issue is how u want the dog to see his work is the issue. But I do know of some SchH participants whom likes to see their SchH dogs look n be a social butterfly too.....so nothing is absolutely right or wrong. It is a choice of an individual how he or she wants it. But most if not all the top ones in sports are not conditioned this way. U will know who the social ones are by the way they openly ask everyone to touch their dogs then by all means do it. Otherwise better save the embarassment of being scolded if we are not asked to do so. In this case I think it is better to keep our hands to ourself to be the best policyTongue

BTW, in Guard Dogs, Personal Protection, Police n Military service dog these are non-negotiable. Touch or tease or try to command them...............get ready for a nice word bash from the handler.....lol....BlushPirate

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


comel23
Novice

Feb 27, 2004, 5:55 PM

Post #8 of 31 (2759 views)
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Azman Contact [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Encik Azman

Do u have an email address that I can contact you - interested to keep in touch about SchH locally - Others like PSD too far awaylah - he refer me to you Tongue Sly he....he... my e-mail is comel23@puppy.com.my

Thanks!
Cheers Everyone

"Love Your Dog and You'll Be Loved Unconditionally"


MalsInOz
Novice


Feb 27, 2004, 7:23 PM

Post #9 of 31 (2751 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi RealityDreamer,

How long has Ty been reacting like this? I understand he's about 18 months now? For me these big dogs don't mature till 2.5/3 years old and if this has only just started then it could just be a phase he's entering.

Be careful though, knowing your dog may react this way, it's important that you keep him and other people safe. At the same time you must remain calm and decisive otherwise your dog will pick up on your nerves (tight leash, obvious avoidance of situations, etc.) and this will only reinforce the wrong behaviour.

For me, you'd need to work through this now, with more socialisation and exposure to different surroundings and situations. My basic idea for socialisation is exposure to anything and everything. If the dog is not sure of something, start at a comfortable distance for the dog and slowly work closer, usually by distracting the dog with play or food, don't force the dog to do something he doesn't want to do. Use encouragement or any positive trick you can think of to work closer.

One thing we look for is a fast recovery, so the dog may get aggressive/defensive, however as soon as the threat/trigger is removed the dog will immediately calm down. If Ty does not have this rapid recovery right now, you just need to be aware of it.

It's virtually impossible to tell exactly what's going on without seeing how the dog is reacting, but remember, even a good PP dog must be able to function in the community otherwise it becomes a huge liability to you and if you can't take the dog with you everywhere then it won't be able to do it's job.

I agree with PSD, you have a big powerful dog, that is obviously showing some aggression, you must have reliable basic obedience to make your life easier and safer.

I also agree that no-one should touch anybody elses dog without at least obvious consent from the handler, regardless of whether it's a pet poodle or a military GSD. We teach this rule to very young children. How many times do kids get bitten running up to a dog and throwing their arms around it's head? Then people blame the dog!

Regards,

Evan


MalsInOz
Novice


Feb 27, 2004, 8:03 PM

Post #10 of 31 (2746 views)
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____________________________________________________________________________________

"...99% of dogs will not bite if they are not trained to bite so I believe it is still safe as they will not engage..."

____________________________________________________________________________________

Hi PSD,

Can we just clarify this one a little more? In general i think i understand what you're saying, could it be the same as this...

...99% of dogs without specific training, if faced with a threat, will choose avoidance over engagement.

I agree totally with you on this, but can i add...

...all dogs, big ones, small ones and fluffy ones know how to bite instinctively and will often bite for many different reasons. We don't teach dogs to bite, but we do train some of them to know when it's appropriate and in which way.

Would you agree?

Regards,

Evan


PSD
ALPHA


Feb 27, 2004, 11:24 PM

Post #11 of 31 (2739 views)
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Wink

Quote
I agree totally with you on this, but can i add...

...all dogs, big ones, small ones and fluffy ones know how to bite instinctively and will often bite for many different reasons. We don't teach dogs to bite, but we do train some of them to know when it's appropriate and in which way.

Would you agree?



Of course, I dont see how I can disagree on this Smile. I did mentioned in my first posting on this thread that it is all a matter what cue for the dog to act in what way which goes perfectly in sync with what you have written here. Just another word to put it.

Actually I have a confession to make though. 99% is not a scientific results, I just use that as a figure of speach to elaborate the idea......but i think I'm quite close on that thoughSmileTongue I may the only person of the 1% that will not run from a charging dog. Had been having this funny instinct ever since I was a kid really, no joke ...... yea I think I can be called a weirdo or lost some bolts in the head some say....lolPirate......hahahaha That is why perhaps is the reason I use the 99% equation. Luckily it was sort of proven true never to run from a charging dog otherwise I would not be here to tell the story today.LaughSlyCool

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


MalsInOz
Novice


Feb 28, 2004, 10:16 AM

Post #12 of 31 (2728 views)
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Wink PSD, i just like to make it clear to other people who might be reading that we aren't "teaching our dogs to bite", they already know how to do that.

Smile We teach them self control for when and how they can bite, most importantly we're making sure we can control them in those extreme drive situations.

Me, i'm not a fast runner but i think one day i would have run, but now i hope i know betterTongue. But some of these dogs i just pray i won't ever have to make that choice without my equipmentCrazy!Laugh!

Regards,

Evan


PSD
ALPHA


Feb 28, 2004, 6:25 PM

Post #13 of 31 (2723 views)
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Quote
Wink PSD, i just like to make it clear to other people who might be reading that we aren't "teaching our dogs to bite", they already know how to do that.



Evan, Yeah I agree with the statement and prescribed it myself. Just for the sake of intelectual discussion I believe that 9 out of 10 dogs whom are not brought up in bite development and rules of engagement will choose the survival drive of flight rather than engage a human target unless they are cornered with no where to run in which then fight drive then equals survival drive. Yes dogs already know how to bite but if they are not brought up through bite development, most will choose to 1st show defense and hope that the target leaves the danger zone but if the target proceeds stronger and increase the threat level then most dogs will tap on the survival drive of flight to avoid confrontation with a man. Well this is just a general statement and there is some dog (very minimal in numbers) loaded with fight drive that will choose engagement over flight anytime and anywhere. Mink v haus Wittfeld is one of them.Smile

Well this is just for deeper discussion sake and anyone reading into this please to note that SchH is correctly pointed to the ability to control a dog in all occassions and under all distrractions and environment and not just bites. So SchH training will make the dog more reliable in all occasions. Just in case anyone wrongly inteprete Schutzhund to be a way to teach dog to bite people ......... this is furthest from the truth. A Schutzhund dog is a reliable dog at all times.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
Member

Feb 28, 2004, 7:45 PM

Post #14 of 31 (2718 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Chloe,

The last time I saw Tyson he's still young but each dog will mature differently. Why don't you bring him during our training and observe his reaction when other dogs are doing protection work.
At the same time U need alot more socialisation and exposure for him to be familiar with new situations/people and make him clear in the head due to his size and power if he decides to act on something or someone it could be bad.

cheers

Azman


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Feb 29, 2004, 10:12 PM

Post #15 of 31 (2703 views)
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Hi,

Thanks for replying.

As for Tyson, what I want would be a PP...but that might be too much for him. My aim now is for him to bark and hold but if he has the nerve to take a bite, that would be great. I want the control of a Sch dog but he should also know when to defend me. Something like a Sch dog with civil agitation(did i get this right??)

Usually after one of these episodes when the threat leaves, i give him the command "this way" which means follow me and he complies but not without glancing back. I will work the other commands more to solidify them.

Thanks for the tips.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Feb 29, 2004, 10:28 PM

Post #16 of 31 (2701 views)
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Hi Evan,

Tyson will be touching 12 mths in a couple of weeks. He's been reacting like this since he was abt 8-9 mths old. At first it was just trotting closer to the threat till he was abt 6 ft away from it and standing his ground and barking. If he was on the leash,he would go as far as the leash would and just bark.

The last month or so however,he started pulling and growling as well. Sometimes he would be abt a foot or 2 from the threat and would be in the bark and hold position..with less sitting. Well,he would be show a moment of hesitation and when the threat doesn't really react then his bark will intensify and he will "hop" more(on his front legs),with more confidence.

From past observations,when the threat is abt 25-30 ft away..he seems alright,no barking just watching till I gv him the command to follow me.

While socialising, he's alright with ppl coming up to him and petting him and being around him. So far anyway. Will work more on his socialization and ob.

Thanks so much for your time.Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Feb 29, 2004, 10:33 PM

Post #17 of 31 (2699 views)
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Hi, Smile

Will do so the next time. Thanks.

Hmm...besides parks with kids playing around,fire crakers,dropping pans/thick books/heavy items...what else can I do for exposure?
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



MalsInOz
Novice


Mar 1, 2004, 2:06 AM

Post #18 of 31 (2695 views)
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Hi RealityDreamer,

Like i say it's impossible to really tell without seeing the behaviour for oneself.Smile But i'll try to give you my ideas based on how i understand what you've described.

For me, at just 12 months, Ty has more growing up to do before real training for defense. I personally would just be working on his Prey/Play drives and bite skills and even though you're after a PP dog, not sport dog, for me Prey drive is still desirable to support training and definitely for bite skills. He has lots of time and specific training to come that will/can teach him how to use his drives to defend you, as long as he has the drives/nerve to carry it.

Socialisation as i think most here are referring to here, is more "exposure" to all and every environmental influence, so he can think clearly and not be influenced by the environment in his future work. Socialisation is not so much just how he interacts with people, but more so how he is comfortable in his surroundings and not feeling threatened or unsure.

For me this is where Prey/Play/Food drives will support him right now if he's not immediately comfortable with his surroundings. With him in drive it's far easier to introduce new environments without him worrying about them.

Socialisation/Exposure to anything and everything, without him feeling threatened or unsure, that for me would be the goal right now.

Busy streets, Shopping Centres, Bus Depots, Car Parks, Train Stations, Indoors, Outdoors, Sportsfields while people are playing, cheering, yelling and moving fast, different flooring as in slippery floors, metal grates, plastic sheeting etc. etc. Any new sound or sight that Ty hears or sees and does not concern himself with is another success!Wink Go slow if you need to and as soon as you see any sign of unsureness start to play/ distract him or even back up a little and get a game going that will allow you to move closer with no problems.

While introducing him or continuing to expose him to these things, be sure to remain calm and decisive and have food or toy ready to reward him or distract him long enough that he's no longer worried about the situation. He must feel that all these non-threatening, new experiences are good or at least no problem.Smile

"...The last month or so however,he started pulling and growling as well. Sometimes he would be abt a foot or 2 from the threat and would be in the bark and hold position..with less sitting. Well,he would be show a moment of hesitation and when the threat doesn't really react then his bark will intensify and he will "hop" more(on his front legs),with more confidence..."

Could you just tell us a bit more about this, what was the threat? What sort of situation was this?

You need to be careful though i think as just because a dog is pulling/growling toward the percieved threat is not always power - it can sometimes be a case of get you, before you get me, sort of thing. For me this is not really what you want if it's in response to something that isn't really a threat.

I hope this may give you some ideas, please let us know how you go.Smile

Regards,

Evan


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Mar 1, 2004, 6:18 AM

Post #19 of 31 (2690 views)
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Hello,

That was a fast reply.Smile It does gv me some sort of idea of what to look out for.

Will concentrate more on his bite and prey/play drive.

Thanks for explaining the part of exposure...the thing is,that here, dogs can go to pretty limited places.UnsureShopping Centres, Bus Depots, Car Parks, Train Stations, Sportsfields is a definite no-no. No matter, I'll try to figure out more places to go to.

"You need to be careful though i think as just because a dog is pulling/growling toward the percieved threat is not always power - it can sometimes be a case of get you, before you get me, sort of thing."

This is what I've been thinking for a while....also his perception of a threat.

Anyway, I was on my way home from walking Tyson when I heard something following me. Felt a little uncomfortable,sped up and reached my gate. The noise was still following me and when I stopped,so did the noise. Unleashed Tyson,since it was what I usually did right before I open the door-out of habit(I know it's not the wisest idea) and also just in case,I didn't think Tyson would react the way he did. Thought he would just stand and bark. The ppl who followed me finally spoke up and Tyson surprised for a moment then whipped around,rushed to the person closest and started barking. It was 2 grass cutters on their bicycle. I could tell that he was unsure at first-showing very clearly, as if he was on thin ice. If the man were to lift his arm,I'm pretty sure he would've fled. He was sort of going left and right with his head low.The 2 men said something but were unfazed-didn't do anything fast/threatening and after a couple of seconds, Tyson's posture was more sure of himself and went into the bark & hold position. Went up next to Ty,leashed him,spoke to the 2 men and they went off. Tyson chased them a bit while on the leash and I pulled him back a little,then giving the command to follow me. Praised him after that.

It seems that Tyson gets defensive whenever someone holds something different(be it in a threatening manner or not). Like the camera that was held up, a stick-my neighbour was swaying it just a little and the grass cutters that were being held.....Crazy

Thank you for your time.Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



PSD
ALPHA


Mar 1, 2004, 7:02 PM

Post #20 of 31 (2684 views)
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Chloe,

I think u have plenty of good advices here. I'll just take a small part in giving you a bit of differing thoughts here.

PP dogs needs to be of strong nerve, great temprement and clear headed. They needed to be brought up with series of specialised training to keep them in control, to increase their confident and to socialise them in a wide areas of differing conditions. A PP dog is expected to engage in a serious threat manner. As such their training is continuous to keep them highly tuned for the eventuality.

Personally, I believe this comes with heavy responsibility, I would not encourage you to go into Protection phase of training now. I agree with Evan that at 12 month is too soon for the defensive stress. It would be better off to teach Tyson how to destress and have fun first through play/prey n do more control work in OB. As mentioned before, a dog when it comes to protection work they are instinctive and needent be thought much. If you start protection work now and do not have absolute control over him in such as OB and he does not know how to channel his stress into prey n play....then he is going to be so highly strung and you wouldnt know when that tiny straw will break.

At least now he will not engage because his confidence is still not there but if he had gone through protection training phase, n gotit in his head that all the times he can win against any helper.....then u definately have a humongous task at hand if you cannot control him with OB. I would not want to be in the shoes of those grass cutters...Pirate

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Mar 1, 2004, 7:13 PM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Mar 11, 2004, 9:21 AM

Post #21 of 31 (2638 views)
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Ah..ok. Will do exactly that. Smile

Thanks very much for the advice.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



PSD
ALPHA


Mar 11, 2004, 7:03 PM

Post #22 of 31 (2630 views)
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Chloe,

I would go an extra mile to socialise in all enviroment so that he is not stressed by diff surrounding. this would be good if u decided to go full scale later on. This help in maintaining a good n stable clear-headedness.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


kesuke
Doggyman


Mar 15, 2004, 11:06 PM

Post #23 of 31 (2613 views)
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this is totally irrelevant...hehe....but just wanna say, finally...a pix of your dog!! Cool

Sorely missed and always remembered - Beloved Billy
Penang lang? Click here!!


PSD
ALPHA


Mar 16, 2004, 5:53 AM

Post #24 of 31 (2607 views)
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Re: [kesuke] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Hait! Kesuke-san,

TongueBlushPirate

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


kesuke
Doggyman


Mar 16, 2004, 8:39 PM

Post #25 of 31 (2595 views)
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Re: [PSD] Need advice & opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

heeh...what's with the Pirate face? Crazy
aaahh..better not rojak up this thread..Tongue

Sorely missed and always remembered - Beloved Billy
Penang lang? Click here!!

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