Malaysia Dog and Puppy Portal: Dog Sports, Schutzhund, Protection, Tracking,.....: Schutzhund & Protection Dogs: OB Training for Schutzhund: Page 2

Home


	MAIN INDEX	FAQ & HELP	PHOTO GALLERY	WHO'S ONLINE	LOG IN

Home: Dog Sports, Schutzhund, Protection, Tracking,.....: Schutzhund & Protection Dogs:
OB Training for Schutzhund

Enroll Your Furkids To Training Classes

Building a great bond and relationship with your dog

Find out more >>>

1 2

View All

boon
Doggyman

Feb 20, 2004, 9:39 PM

Post #26 of 36 (1690 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MalsInOz] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Evan,

Yeah this distraction is the good one to test the Super Sit. But for my lab, i can tell u now that her sit will be easily break.

I will update u when my GSD move to that stage.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

PSD
ALPHA

Feb 24, 2004, 9:45 PM

Post #27 of 36 (1663 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MalsInOz, Boon] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

,

Evan, That is a good one. Most people will not know or usually forget this step in training.

Boon,

hahahahaha. That one got you red aint it? Does not matter if its lab or GSD or Mals. Super sit means solid sit as well. This should be a stage to test how solid the sit is. I will first use a 5 or 6 foot leash where I will gradually increase the force of pull (no jerking) if he leaves the sit I will just go back put the sit in the same position again and try the pull again this time less force and if he remains sitting then praise and reward followed with a flying release. Then I will try it on long line. Do this a few times and build up the force and he will get it that sit should be super and solidly ass stuck to the ground Tongue

Even, I do it this way. How do you do it?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

boon
Doggyman

Feb 24, 2004, 10:33 PM

Post #28 of 36 (1658 views)
Shortcut

Re: [PSD] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

That one got you red aint it?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

MalsInOz
Novice

Feb 24, 2004, 11:08 PM

Post #29 of 36 (1656 views)
Shortcut

Re: [PSD] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ah yes, this one even get's many dogs with multiple SchH 3 titles!! Blush

If the resistance to coming out of the position is never taught, then it's only natural for the dog to get up and move to his master! Wink

This is really the first step we use when we start teaching for OB. We start this work only around 12 months of age when the dog is mature enough, before this we use purely motivational techniques to teach the basic commands/positions. Once we start to proof our OB, we use "stress " (proportioned to suit the dog of course) only for being out of the position. When the dog is in correct position, we give much gentle praise and repeat the command, we never give a command while applying "stress". To start, we only ask for an instant of correctness before we give the big break & release.

As soon as the dog understands how to avoid the "stress" (this happens very quickly, if done right and depending on the dog, this can take only one or two repetitions) the dog has no problems and will quickly & happily hit his position and fight to stay in the position for he knows he has no problems if he maintains position and of course it is the gateway to reward! This equals speed & attitude!

Once this first step is solid we move to absolute Attention, then to absolute Attention with excellent attitude and then absolute Attention with excellent attitude under extreme distraction. Proofing & securing through successful repetition, one step at a time.

The "Super Sit" & the learning process developed by the dog, becomes our foundation for teaching virtually all OB excercices.

When i first started with these methods i spent many weeks just working on the "Sit", i could not believe how excited and driven i was to work on a plain old sit!! Laugh

But the reward has been excellent, with a "Super" sit it makes all your work that much easier!

I have also been impressed by the way the dogs can transfer their learning experiences to new positions, like "Fuss", "Steh", "Platz" & "Heir". When i taught these other positions i used exactly the same method and the dog understood almost immediately that speed into, and holding the position under all types of distraction was expected so everything has moved very quickly and remained quite solid, especially evident when we started the motion excercises.

The foundation in speed and correctness under extreme distraction also transfers perfectly to the protection phase - the ultimate distraction! Cool

Once again making your's and the Helpers lives a whole lot easier! Wink

Regards,

Evan

PSD
ALPHA

Feb 24, 2004, 11:58 PM

Post #30 of 36 (1651 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MalsInOz] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

Evan,

Yes, That makes perfect sense. Same as motivational sit with let say food. The idea is for the dog to know how to get the reward. Once he knows the sit n position gets his rewards then he will know how to push for a faster reward. Then when it gos on to another command he will associaten it with the faster I do this the faster I get rewarded. Then teaching is always easier and easier as we goes on further. I agree with you once u succeeded in creating good foundation, the dog will be so much easier to work with since he knows what to revert to. He knows the rules of the game.

This is where compulsion based training differs from motivation in a sense that in compulsions the dog gets worried before any command is being tought. His foundation is learned that way since all new commands means a use of force (regardless of how big or small it is). In a motivation way, he is always looking for a way to be correct and he is naturally fast and high in attitude since he wants the end results faster.

Evan, another thing I want to seek your views on is clicker training for a SchH dog as a begining stage. What do you think?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

MalsInOz
Novice

Feb 25, 2004, 6:00 AM

Post #31 of 36 (1639 views)
Shortcut

Re: [PSD] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

PSD, until about 2 years ago we trained almost exclusively with motivational and clicker techniques right through from puppy to Schutzhund 3. I must say several of our club members had quite good success but getting reliable accuracy in the Protection phase always required the introduction of corrections anyway. Even then, with strong, highly driven dogs, the reliability and accuracy were sometimes a problem.

Looking back i often wonder if it was fair to give those corrections as we'd never really taught the dog how to avoid the corrections in the first place, let alone with the distraction of the helper! Frown

What we did end up with though were dogs that were very energetic and happy to work Cool

, with no "issues" in any of the phases. OK so some of our dogs weren't entirely accurate and weren't all as intense as they could be in the Hold & Bark phases of Protection, but i'd rather have this than have my dog cringing through an OB routine or leaving the helper & not wanting to go into or stay in the blind - as i have seen too many times! Mad

I still use the clicker to teach puppies and to introduce new commands to my older dog, however with the older dog i put the clicker away now as soon as the dog starts to offer the behaviour then shows a basic understanding of the command.

So if we hadn't stumbled across this "program" that we're using now, the clicker would still be my primary training tool, i think it is an excellent teaching tool when used properly.

Regards,

Evan

PSD
ALPHA

Feb 25, 2004, 8:55 PM

Post #32 of 36 (1631 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MalsInOz] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

Evan,

Yeah I agree with you that on the protection phase some form of compulsion is needed. All the good dogs I had seen choses a helper over any food or toy or clicker. Personally I dont think clicker works that well if at all when it comes to protection work in maintaining control with extreem helper distraction.

I think this particular topic is very interesting. At the moment what I do is teaching, add distraction, reward, add heavier distraction, reward, proving. The helper is used as a distraction and the bites is a reward on accuracy.

Do you also do it this way? or mind sharing how u do it?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

MalsInOz
Novice

Feb 25, 2004, 9:18 PM

Post #33 of 36 (1627 views)
Shortcut

Re: [PSD] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

PSD wrote,"...I think this particular topic is very interesting. At the moment what I do is teaching, add distraction, reward, add heavier distraction, reward, proving. The helper is used as a distraction and the bites is a reward on accuracy..."

Yes this is basically the same principles we use and to me it makes a lot of sense. If the dog cannot sit with Attention under no distraction then it is unfair to add distraction. So before introducing OB into the protection phase, we want our dogs to be very solid under the distraction of lots of people, swinging tug toys to entice the dog to make a mistake, other dogs working very close, lots of barking & tug play all around etc. etc.

The other thing we're big on now is getting the dog into high drive and barking in OB then having the dog respond immediately to command, this prepares the dog to respond when high in drive during Protection work.

When we do add OB into Protection phase it starts just with the helper standing still and when the dog will work through this, we have the helper start tapping his leg or cracking the whip etc. When the dog is correct we release for the bite or H & B, you know.

People seem to always be making the mistake of asking the dog to do some OB in protection when they don't have it 100% without the helper, to me this is unfair on the dog as the dog doesn't understand what it's being corrected for.

Regards,

Evan

PSD
ALPHA

Feb 27, 2004, 1:48 AM

Post #34 of 36 (1607 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MalsInOz] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

Evan,

U r my kind of man. Now I must make it a point to one day see u guys train. Damn if the $ exchange isnt so high...... Tongue

now its like 1 AUD = RM3 Frown

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

MalsInOz
Novice

Feb 27, 2004, 8:14 PM

Post #35 of 36 (1589 views)
Shortcut

Re: [PSD] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

Maybe when Comel23 visits in March we can get some video, at least that's a start eh? Not the same as in person i know, but sure one day! Wink

Our dollar is good right now for importing dogs from USA - now only to find the money! Laugh

I don't know how long it'll last though, as soon as the US rates start to move everyone will return to the greenback!

Regards,

Evan

PSD
ALPHA

Feb 27, 2004, 8:52 PM

Post #36 of 36 (1587 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MalsInOz] OB Training for Schutzhund [In reply to]	Can't Post

evan,

yeah tht would be great. Sometimes have to be able to make ado with whatever we have n sieze the moment rather than worry of what we dont have. i think buying dogs from the states is not the problem. The problem is getting them into OZ that's a chore rite? Is the 6 month quarantine ruling still on? I think the rates should correct itself as a matter of time. Was wondering when uncle Sam is going to revise the interest rates. Otherwise we will have to pay through out nose for equipment n doggies imports here in malaysia.

Do you guys have any private collections of homemade videos on your seminars, training sessions and perhaps trials that can be made into copies to share? If you do have then great, if we cant be there then might as well sit in the living room here and drool over the tv for it..... Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

1 2

View All