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Home: Dog and Puppy Training: Dog Obedience Training & General Training Topics:
To Heel or Not to Heel





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wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Jan 30, 2004, 6:19 AM

Post #1 of 37 (3485 views)
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To Heel or Not to Heel Can't Post

Read somewhere that it was better to train the dog to sit, down before teaching him healing....what's your say?

All this while I thought it was, heel first then followed by the rest....


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Jan 31, 2004, 10:52 PM

Post #2 of 37 (3472 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

hmmm i feel whichever sequence doesn't really matter as long as your dog is not blur and confused by what you're teaching him :)

however tho, if it's me i would prefer to teach the sits and the downs and the stands first, so while he's heeling later i can already stop halfway during heeling and expect a sit/down/stand from him with a command :)




regards,
hunter


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Feb 2, 2004, 12:15 AM

Post #3 of 37 (3466 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Agree with Hunter ... you can teach a dog in any sequence ... Just that it is perhaps a little more practical to begin with ... Sit, Stay etc ... before proceeding to Heeling ...

Heeling keeps your dog beside you during walks ... you can start your Sit & Stay training well before your dog is old enough to go walking ...

It's also probably easier (for most of us) to teach Sit & Stay first (including, introduction of the "No" or "Stop" command) ... and once the dog (and owner) get used to teaching/training ... then Heeling can follow.

Cheers Smile


PSD
ALPHA


Feb 2, 2004, 1:56 AM

Post #4 of 37 (3462 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

Wildgunsr,

Congrats on finally getting a dog. For the Q on which sequence to start does not matter anyway Agreed with Hunter and surchinmy that sit, down, sit stay and down stay are the4 most basic excercise would be easier to teach for a puppy. Heeling is more complex as it involves movement, right turns, left turns, about turns, normal pace, fast pace, slow pace and would be more stressful on the dog if he had not understand the sequence of learning beforehand. By teaching simple commands like sit and down first will teach the dog understanding of your teaching ways and have an idea of what to expect.

Actually, u need to break the excercise into small minor sequence to teach. Heeling involves sit and down in the OB as well as SchH OB. Sit in this case are the begining position for heeling. Therefore it makes sense to teach sit before heel.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Feb 3, 2004, 4:45 PM

Post #5 of 37 (3451 views)
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Re: [PSD, ALL] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi All,

PSD : Wildgunsr got his working pup already ?

Totally agree with you all but I personally would like to have the sequence go thsi way, get the FOCUS/Attention first thing first.

I will do tihs by calling the dog's name and when he/she look at u or run toward u, then wait no more and praise/reward. Continue to do this for few days and ur pup should be able to get u, when u call, he/she will sure come to u (sit infront, stand infront does not matter at this stage, so do not reinforce) and u can 'make' him look/focus/pay attention longer before u praise/reward.

After this focus work, u can start train the pup with sit, stand, down, stay or which ever u think is appropriate. This FOCUS work will help u very much in getting your dog heel with his/her head up and always looking at u when on command and in the later stage u can combine the heel with focus as 1 exercise.

my 1.5 cents worth of heel work with focus or i would like to call it 'Knock the wall heeling'........lol............

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Feb 3, 2004, 7:02 PM

Post #6 of 37 (3447 views)
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Re: [boon] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Totally agree with you all but I personally would like to have the sequence go thsi way, get the FOCUS/Attention first thing first.

I will do tihs by calling the dog's name and when he/she look at u or run toward u, then wait no more and praise/reward. Continue to do this for few days and ur pup should be able to get u, when u call, he/she will sure come to u (sit infront, stand infront does not matter at this stage, so do not reinforce) and u can 'make' him look/focus/pay attention longer before u praise/reward.



I would agree with this. Focus n Attention can also be achieved with ball/tug driving. Which brings back to what the handler/owner wanted of this puppy as the end results. If you wanted the dog to go into protection later on, then your OB only should be on 100% motivation and drive induced. Only after they reach about 14 months at least should you be doing formal obedience.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


shyeow2
Canine Addict


Feb 19, 2004, 5:50 PM

Post #7 of 37 (3412 views)
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Re: [ALL] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

hi,

i read a book teaching the free style heeling.. usually we do heel work on the left side..(coz of the choke chain?) then this book it teach both side..

after the dog can heel off leash when command him 'change' he will change and heel on the right side.. i m just wonder, this sounds interesting but will it confuse our dog? so i dont try on that.. any comments?

another Q : during heelwork, when we command them turn left they usually use command : 'back'. i dont know about this not after i join in some trainning programme. so from young all my dogs think the command back means they are going home and back to their sleeping place..

once during trainning i command my dog back he confuse and try to get back into car.. so any comments how could i overcome this? it sounds silly if i change the commands myself and others use the standard command right?
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Feb 19, 2004, 6:16 PM

Post #8 of 37 (3411 views)
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Re: [shyeow2] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello ...

Different trainers will have preference for different "sounds or words" ... to signify the same action ... As long as the "sound or word" - is clear and distinct, that is sufficient ...

If the word "back" already has a meaning for your dog ... DO NOT HESITATE to use another "sounds or words" to signify turn left during heeling ...

Changing a "sound or word" to suit your dog is not being silly - it is being practical and sensible ...

It is so much easier for you to use another "sound or word" than to try and recondition your dog to understand that "back" now means something totally different ... And anyone who tells you otherwise does not understand dogs or training ... so don't worry. Dogs around the world are taught in every conceivable language and range of sounds and words known to man ...

Dogs only get confused when the trainer is confused ... Most times - it is harder to teach a person how to properly train a dog, than it is to train the dog itself ...

Using correct training methods ... a dog can learn the meaning of "change" without confusion ...

Cheers ... Smile

PS ... As to why we traditionally heel on the left side ... it's generally believed that heel training was first implimented by hunters. Since most people are right handed, the hunter would carry his gun on the crook of his right arm ... and it was therefore more convenient and safe for the dog to heel on the left ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Feb 19, 2004, 6:19 PM)


shyeow2
Canine Addict


Feb 19, 2004, 7:35 PM

Post #9 of 37 (3408 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah, i think i should tell my instructor about my prob then..otherwise he thought i go against him..

that was interesting for the reason why we heel on the left not the right.i never know about that, thanks for the info!

the book introduce the right heelwork coz for dancing purposes, is very creative and interesting for me.. the traditional heelwork is quite boring..
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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Feb 19, 2004, 7:55 PM

Post #10 of 37 (3406 views)
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Re: [shyeow2] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes ... good idea to inform your instructer/trainer what you intend to do ... Smile ...

And have fun dancing with your dog ...

Cheers


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Feb 19, 2004, 11:43 PM

Post #11 of 37 (3401 views)
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Re: [shyeow2] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

hi

surchinmy is right, the commands used definitely doesn't matter, as long as your dog understands it.

even in obedience trials, different handlers use different sorts of commands. for instance, when doing the jumps in trials, some would prefer "hup" some would say "jump" or some would say other commands...anyway i was silly enough to go for "over", which is a 2 syllables word and hence not so effective.

if u were to change a better command, one syllable is preferred. hmm, maybe u can use the command "left"? just a suggestion.

btw the heel on left or right doesn't really matter, but if you were to teach ur dog free style heeling, make sure u ground the heeling basics first.. don't switch sides too fast or they might get confused :)


shyeow2
Canine Addict


Feb 20, 2004, 12:41 AM

Post #12 of 37 (3400 views)
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Re: [hunter] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

yea, thanks for the suggestion. i would used 'left' instead 'back'. just to make him more clear..

oh.. the right heelwork i m just curious, my boy heelwork still not good he still can not concentrate ..will wait til he is very good on left side first..may be 2-3 more yrs..???
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hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Feb 20, 2004, 7:11 AM

Post #13 of 37 (3396 views)
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Re: [shyeow2] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

well how long the dog will be good in heelwork definitely depends on how well you train him :) it's not about duration actually, some good trainer can get a dog do beautiful heels with merely few months or even weeks

as for me i've been training my dog 2 years plus now and he's still not even close to perfect :/

maybe u can make him do it well within few months, who knows :)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Feb 20, 2004, 7:28 AM

Post #14 of 37 (3395 views)
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Re: [shyeow2] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello there,

Li Ping's right. It doesn't take long..it all depends how often you train your dog and refresh the lesson. Dogs learn quick Smile
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sweesan
Enthusiast


Feb 20, 2004, 7:31 AM

Post #15 of 37 (3394 views)
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Re: [hunter] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

to "heel" means ??? what's the dog suppose to do ??

i dont have any experience in training a dog.. and hugo's my first dog.. so.. very blur..




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hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Feb 20, 2004, 9:29 AM

Post #16 of 37 (3390 views)
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Re: [sweesan] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

hi swee san :)

"heel" is a command we use to ask our dog to walk right beside us while we're walking. hence the exercise we do in obedience trials is called "heelwork exercise" - dog walks nicely by side of owner = good heelwork. so you say "heel!" and off u + ur dog goes.

in obedience, a good heelwork it's important to show that the dog is close to the owner, no pulling, no lagging behind.. their shoulder is aligned with our thigh while walking. and when we stop during the heel exercise, dogs will sit, or down/stand, depends on our command. mmm, there's also heel with leash/off leash - meaning dog walks by the owner with/without leash.

anyway, heeling is not merely for those trials or exercises, if dog is trained well it's very useful while taking them out for walks. imagine them not pulling you all the way to the garden, or while walking by busy roads, a good heel will ensure your dog's safety :)

once you start the obedience class (have you registered?), you'll understand more about it, don't worry too much about it. i too was confused myself last time like u :p

Heel!!!~~~~


shyeow2
Canine Addict


Feb 20, 2004, 9:48 PM

Post #17 of 37 (3385 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah i know what u trying to say, the problem is sometimes i m just too lazy / tired. hahahaha

i think my dogs luv trainning coz they can hav treats when i command them "trainning?" they will jump up to my sofa and jumping up and down and bark happily. last time i try to train them for at least 20 mins per day but now i getting lazy already.. sometimes 3 days once sometimes 2 days once..

just wonder normally u guys train them after the meal or after the walk or how?? because if after the meal they wont be so active, but i need to bring them walk whenever morning they seen me / evening they see me after work, otherwise they will poo in the garden..i also pity them, they need to control for so long. so usually after i come back from walk (sometimes play quite sometime) already tired, they also tired, just wait for the meal....any advise?
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sweesan
Enthusiast


Feb 21, 2004, 7:51 AM

Post #18 of 37 (3381 views)
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Re: [hunter] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

erm.. yeah i'm planning to register this sunday... but them i'm not a member of MKA then where to register ?? can just register in the training area ??

then how is the schedule.. every sunday ?? evening ??

oh.. and today.. so happy.. he finally fetched the ball back to me.. hahahha.. cause usually when i throw the ball away.. he'll bite it and hide underneath the piano and start playing with it.. but today.. dont know why.. suddenly he bring the ball to me.. ahahha.. so bangga Laugh




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hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Feb 21, 2004, 8:26 AM

Post #19 of 37 (3380 views)
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Re: [sweesan] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

yes u can just register there, but by this weekend, don't quite think it's possible to get a place coz most of the time it'll be full already. go try ur luck this sunday :) if no place left, wait till 3 months later for the next intake

classes on every sunday, 2 sessions - 4-5pm, 5-6pm. occasionally classes on sunday will be cancelled and replaced on saturday.

hahaahh, remember, once he bring back the ball, PRAISE like crazy, just to motivate him to do it next time.


sweesan
Enthusiast


Feb 21, 2004, 8:32 AM

Post #20 of 37 (3379 views)
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Re: [hunter] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

HAR ?? 3 months ?? aiyoh.. cant wait leh.. FrownPirate

i hope there's still A place left... but erm.. i think i'll try to call first la... cause the place is quite far away la...

hahaha... yahla... of course praise like crazy la... then tried a couple of times.. he did that also... LaughLaughLaugh but then ar... dunno why when my brother ask him to fetch the ball.. he dont know wor.... maybe er tired d.. ahahhaha Crazy




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hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Feb 21, 2004, 8:43 AM

Post #21 of 37 (3378 views)
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Re: [sweesan] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

aiya of course la ppl already booked place for like few months ago. in fact the new intake should've started earlier but was delayed couple of weeks :/

hope u get a place la :p


sweesan
Enthusiast


Feb 21, 2004, 6:22 PM

Post #22 of 37 (3374 views)
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Re: [hunter] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

sharks.. no place d.... means if i were to wait for 3 more months ar... my doggie would be 6 months old d... then have to join basic class d la ?? aiseh..Crazy means have to book now d.. if not later no place.. really PirateFrown even if it's basic classes it's also Rm100 right ??




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hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Feb 21, 2004, 8:12 PM

Post #23 of 37 (3372 views)
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Re: [sweesan] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

hi sweesan

yea if ur dog is 6 months old he'll be in basic class. but then again i don't even know if there's kindergarten class this semester. probably not...

yes, even if it's basic class also RM100 provided that you're already MKA member.

don't worry too much, six months old is just fine too. my dog only started when he's eight months old last time. some dogs enroll in at 8 months, 12 months or even 2 years, 3 years plus and they just do fine :)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Feb 26, 2004, 8:39 AM

Post #24 of 37 (3352 views)
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Re: [shyeow2] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

Hehe..know what you mean. Wink

My dogs love it as well. Mostly coz they get your full attention and get treats for it as well.Smile

For me, I would train for abt 5-10 mins per session of Ob a day. Most of the time one session a day. But if I'm free another session will do. Usually I train before walks or meals. So that the meals or walks would seem like bonuses after training.

hmm... How abt at night? Maybe a few hours after dinner? Just a short but sweet session. I think you should cut down on the session length....20 mins seems a little too long.Or you could train them before your walks?
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shyeow2
Canine Addict


Feb 26, 2004, 10:05 PM

Post #25 of 37 (3347 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] To Heel or Not to Heel [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you for the comments. now i do it during my movie advertise time. is about few min. long hehehe

my little boy after meal must go for the walk.. he can not tahan so long.. some more he very fussy he only go to the same spot do his business.. sometimes rainning i m really headace~

Happy trainning!Laugh
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