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Home: Dog Sports, Schutzhund, Protection, Tracking,.....: Schutzhund & Protection Dogs:
Running/Jogging Routine





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RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Jan 19, 2004, 8:05 AM

Post #1 of 49 (3342 views)
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Running/Jogging Routine Can't Post

Hi,

Had this question for the past week or so but nvr had the time to post it. Anyway, how far or long do you jog your dogs? Could you please specify which breed as well please? (I assume mostly GSD's and malinois' Wink) Perhaps weight as well if that affects the amount of exercise given to the dog?
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 2, 2004, 10:05 AM

Post #2 of 49 (3304 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Chloe,

Not too sure whether it's alright for me to ask this question in this thread but i felt safer asking here than other threads where u are having really serious discussions. Since u're the only one who's seen Nash, i was wondering whether a dog like him that is not from the Guard Dogs' Breed section to be a "Schutzhund"? I'm trying to get either Nash/Josie to be a proper guard dogs and not just guarding the house by barking excessively when someone walks/stands infront of our house. I try my "own way" of training Josie (unfortunately not for Nash as he seems uninterested). How i train josie to be fiercer is by rolling a cloth and put it shoulders-level n once i mention the word Attack! she'll jump up and bite the cloth. It's more or less like what u tried on at last year's MIPE event. But the thing that troubles me is that, is she bitting-playfully or is she bitting-attacking? Sometimes she does listen to word attack and bite onto whatever i pointed at her to attack but i'm not sure whether she's taking this as a serious training rather than just a game as like hwat Azman said to me last time, when u train a dog your voice's got to be stern and fierce. You'remore experienced in things like thsi if compared to me so advices are most appreciated.


mhazman
Member

Mar 2, 2004, 8:02 PM

Post #3 of 49 (3301 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Paulyn,

I didn't say Stern and fierce larr...
It should be firm.. may be when you saw me giving command to my dog at K9 day it was louder than normal.He's used to that and behaves differently in work and play.

Azman


paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 2, 2004, 8:39 PM

Post #4 of 49 (3299 views)
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Re: [mhazman] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Sorry that i quoted your words wrongly! Yes that was the word i was thinking of whilst typing stern/fierce. Hope u can help me out with the questions that i posted for Chloe. Hm, maybe i should send my dogs under your observation ;)


mhazman
Member

Mar 2, 2004, 9:20 PM

Post #5 of 49 (3296 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Paulyn,
May be you can start a new thread for Protection dogs so others can benefit and contribute to the understanding of watchdogs/guard/protection dogs.
The type, temperament and training for such a dog is what makes it an effective protection K9.

cheers

Azman


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Mar 4, 2004, 2:48 AM

Post #6 of 49 (3278 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello,

At the moment,don't exactly have time to post(having exams now) so I'll make a quick one.

I actually wanted to talk to you abt it the other day but somehow we got carried away with something else.

What got me a little concerned was when you said that you trained Josie to bite....when I saw her, she was in fear, I think I might've intimidated her or something close by might hv done so. Her ears were back,teeth showing and giving a side glare... I saw this and moved further away. A moment later she took a nip.

"is she bitting-playfully or is she bitting-attacking?" I would assume she's biting playfully since there is no threat around. I doubt Josie would think of you as a threat...therefore nothing serious...more towards play.You are after all her parent,provider and the one she adores most in her life.Smile

Schutzhund is a sport comprising of protection, tracking and obedience.

And a dog need not be from the "guard dogs breed" section to excel at schutzhund. There are labs who have reached the highest level of the sport.Smile

As for guarding, I'm not so sure...but it should be possible provided your dog is made out of the right stuff. ie. good nerves,high drive and a steady temperament(look up the old threads on this)

Would liek to talk to you more abt this..maybe ths weekend ? Also, do look up the older threads. The help alot.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



PSD
ALPHA


Mar 5, 2004, 12:08 AM

Post #7 of 49 (3265 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer, paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Paulyn/Chloe,

Sorry for interupting your discussion but I was attracted to it by the mention of the word Schutzhund.TongueLaugh.......had this shutzhund syndrom of compulsive attractant to the word...lol.

Anyway, just be careful wat u r doing.

For one, is the dog suited for such training in the first place?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Mar 7, 2004, 7:56 PM

Post #8 of 49 (3242 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,Smile

How was MIPE? couldn't make it coz I had tuition... Pirate

Anyway,here's an interesting thread..not sure if you have read it before or not,but here it is anyway:

http://www.puppy.com.my/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

ok. first of all, as stressed in the other thread is the importance of control a.k.a obedience. The dog must be able to comply under whatever situation. What if the PP dog wee to mistaken a child holding a stick as a threat..if the owner had no control...he'd be digging his own grave. The point here is to get the obedience solid. Not just in the home but everywhere in *any* situation with whatever distractions (cats,cars,ppl,loud noises,another dog...etc)

Ok...um..let me explain the best I can of what goes through a dog when he bites. I'm not too good at this part since I'm new to it as well.

When a dog bites, he has to be confident. He has to know that he can overporwer the threat. A dog's natural insticnt would tell him to flee if the situation gets out of hand and is not in his favour. So when biting,he has to be confident enough with bravery. Imagine this. You're abt 3 ft tall weighing in at 30kgs. You're unprotected. Your threat: 7 ft tall, weighing well over 100 kgs, charging at you with a stick in his hand. You are to protect your loved one. What are the odds of winning? Not good. Naturally, I would've run for cover.But a good PP dog would have the bravery and confidence to have a go at him anyway and do all he can in his power to bring him down,until he's too tired or unfortuantely dead.....Would Josie be able to do this? It takes an incredible amount of bravery,courage and confidence to be able to do it. Heck, alot of ppl wouldn't be able to do that. Tongue Usually, the threat would be too shocked to really retaliate and the pain of the bite would be terribly unbearable. And after a short struggle, the threat would've given up and the dog can be called off.

The bite training that you are doing is a start. Youe should try to train her so that she has the confidence that she can win the cloth.See the older thread reagrding this.

"Azman said to me last time, when u train a dog your voice's got to be stern and fierce."

Well, as he said earlier..have to be stern and strict. It also depends on the dog. Some are used to it. Some use it like " when using the tone,it's business".

Also, one thing that I wanted to say is...er...are you sure you want Josie to put her life on the line? Physically....she's abt 10kgs? 17" ?... UnsureUnimpressed If she has the drives and nerves..think she would be better as a sports dog since the environment would be controlled and she wouldn't be harmed.

But anyway, think what you can do now is train her ob till it's rock solid.Socialize her more so that she's confident to know that humans are friendly.You want her to think this way so that she knows that they're not a threat initially. You do not want her to be afraid or ferarful because that would induce fear-biting which is in my opinion(and the others here as well) a big no-no.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 7, 2004, 11:13 PM

Post #9 of 49 (3238 views)
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Re: [PSD] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Actually i don't mind at all if u join in the discussion as i wanted to ask u as well but thought that it might be a too much of a "stupid" question to ask a person like you :)

Well, i sincerely hope that he or she or better still the both of them are suited to be guard dogs because of where i'm staying, it's not really safe at all n i'd rather want them both to stay on-guard all the time . For eg, if a friend of mine is outside and i'd still want them to stay onguard unless i say a certain word where they'll stay off guard. Is there such ways ofdoingthis anyway?


paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 7, 2004, 11:18 PM

Post #10 of 49 (3237 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Well i know what u mean by your previous post and all.Of course i wouldn't expect her to be a SP dog but would want her and nash to be an alert dog (meaning: stay on guard at all times and knowing where's the danger etc...) I just wnat her to be a threat to potential robbers and all if u get what i mean. I'm definitely not expecting her to be the REAL shutzund dog but want her and nash (hopefully) to have what itt takes to be a good guard dog. Hope u get the picture.


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Mar 7, 2004, 11:28 PM

Post #11 of 49 (3237 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Paulynn,

I think, first and foremost, you should consider the temparement and dissposition of Josie. I'm not sure what breed is she but I would assume that she has the basic genetic make-up that's why you are training her to bite and to be a GUARD dog. Besides genetic make-up please be sure that your dog is clear in the head.

After selecting the appropriate dog for the task at hand, the next would be training which would be imposed on the dog. One of the fundamental trainings for a protection dog (I assume that's what you want your guard dog to do), is STRONG AND SOLID Obedience. There is NO two ways about this. Totally 100% no compromise in this area. Ask yourself this, when your dog is having fun with a toy or something that she really really enjoys playing with, and you call her, does she come IMMEDIATELY, or it takes you ages (giving the command more than once - high level obedience) before she reacts to your command and you sounded like "Josie Come! Come! Come! " before she actually does? If that's the case, let me put it in perspective for you, what makes you think that when Josie's fighting for your/her life, when it is a matter of life and death, that she would come to you upon recall? My definition of total obedience is, I do not have to repeat myself or even beg my dog to adhere to my command. This may sound harsh, but you would soon understand it when you have a 'Killer' dog in your hands and have read up on the legal implications that can befall you.

If I ask you to heel, you better well heel, if i ask you to come you better well come, I don't care if you're about to win your prize. Even if you're on a barking frenzy, wanting to launch an attack, straining on the leash, hopping with white hot burning anger, when I ask you to sit, you better sit. If you do not have total obedience from your dog, I doubt you should train her for protection. Total obedience is the main priority for any dog that is trained for protection.

I agree with Chloe regarding 100% obedience from a Protection dog. If a kid decides to swing or play with a stick and your dog goes for the jugular, you do a recall, and Josie does not response immediately, that split second would determine the faith of the kid, life or death. Yes, some may say, it's the stupid kids fault that he did what he did, but kids would be kids. We're not even touching the legal issues/liabilities with having a dog that's trained to bite.

Assuming that you have yet to establish the suitability of Josie for protection/guard work, I think there's a few categories which you should look at before going any further with training her to bite. Afterall all dogs can/will bite at some point of another, but the reason to bite must be 100% clear before it launches the attack.

The categories are:
  1. The dog whose sole function is to give alarm
  2. The dog who gives alarm and offers some physical threat to an intruder
  3. The real man-stopper, whose temperament and physical qualities make her a game and capable fighter.


Your correct choice of a dog will be determined in great measure by the type of protection dog you need.

I assume here again, that you are going for the man-stopper, her job is not to merely show a willingness to fight, but to stop a man, if necessary, by winning the fight. Among the qualities that a man-stopper should have are,
  1. A strong sense of responsibility - no use if she doesn't feel it's her responsibilities to guard owner and property
  2. Awareness - must be alert and aware of situations that develops
  3. Decisiveness - besides awareness and concern, she must act with sufficient force when needs be
  4. Courage - must be able to stand up against threat and pain
  5. Capability - both mentally and physically
  6. Reasonableness - If you were the one that let your friend in the house, the dog should respect your judgement, but still remain alert.


Several things I personally look for when seeking a protection dog after confirming it has the dispossition and temparement is the clear headedness of the dog, the capability to discriminate and most importantly the 100% obedience. All this can be determine with the proper selection of the prospect. There are some things in a dog that just cannot be minimised/maximised through training or environment.

I hope this helps to give you a slightly better picture on what should be considered before training any dog for protection.

At the end of the day, your dog should be social enough, to allow a kid to come up and give him a pat, a friend to give him a friendly rub, but still remain its alertness, discrimination and obedience to you. "It's between life and death, whether you're here or not, it's not about point demerits, it's either you live or you don't" Wink

But of course there are just some dogs, protection or not, that you should never ever approach without the owner telling you so or giving you the green light. Even if it's just a pat.PiratePiratePirate For instance, I dunno, maybe a Border Patrol Dog from the former USSR...CoolPiratePirateAngelic


(This post was edited by wildgunsr on Mar 7, 2004, 11:37 PM)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Mar 7, 2004, 11:42 PM

Post #12 of 49 (3234 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Paulynn,

A Schutzhund dog and a Protection dog is very very different.

A Schutzhund dog may never be a Protection dog and vice versa.

A Schuthund dog works in a definte set of parameters. But a protection dog will need to discriminate for itself what is unusual/threat in its daily environment. There are some SchH dogs that are so friendly, I'm not sure you can't take him away...Wink


paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 7, 2004, 11:52 PM

Post #13 of 49 (3231 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

hi,

thanks heaps for the awesome piece of advise. Josie if compared to nash is really really really reallllllly lousy at obeying my commands/orders. It's either because:
  1. she knows that nash is the first dog and thus we give him more attention
  2. she is just plain stubborn


Nash replies well but when i teach him how to "attack" a cloth, he's not as hyper and as interested in nash.How nice it'd be if i have josie's eagerness in his genes. He's too lazy even to pick up with toys evnethough he gets a tad bit jealous if i'm occupied by josie playing whole evening. Crazy

Anyway since dad's with the government and i've already hinted that i want those retired dogs from the police / custom's dog he might just take one back. Smile But still i'm training josie :) Just teaching her what i know and the basics of a guard dog.


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Mar 7, 2004, 11:57 PM

Post #14 of 49 (3230 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

BlushBlushBlush I help with what little i can...

Perhaps, what you can do is build her(or nash as well) suspicions up. To 'bark and hold' when something unsual/suspicious happens. More to give you alert then to stop a man.Smile


(This post was edited by wildgunsr on Mar 7, 2004, 11:58 PM)


paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 8, 2004, 12:29 AM

Post #15 of 49 (3227 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

But how do i build that suspicion up for hte both of them? they either outwit outplay outsmart me most of the times or they'd be sit and not bothered to do anything (esp nash but not josie cos she yearns for our attention 24/7)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Mar 8, 2004, 5:53 AM

Post #16 of 49 (3224 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Dammit...i wrote a very long reply and i just lost it...@#$#@(*#$*@(& wasted a good hour on that!!!! aaAARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!MadMadMadFrownFrownCrazyCrazy

haih....don't think i can recall all of it....i'll try to tell you offline, if we should ever meet...what a doofuss




SOMEBODY SHOOT ME!!!!!!!


(This post was edited by wildgunsr on Mar 8, 2004, 5:56 AM)


paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 8, 2004, 7:44 AM

Post #17 of 49 (3220 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha...i am convinced that i know how u felt when u lost your text! I keep losing mine esp replying an email and it gets on my nerves that i don't even want to reply back at all! At leastu replied ..unlike me.Anyway ihave msn., it'd be better than sending to puppy anyway if it's going to be a long one and wont have higher risk on losing it since i'm online and i get to read it at the same time u sent it.

paulynn_lim@hotmail.com

*paulynn shoots ......SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT"


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Mar 8, 2004, 11:28 AM

Post #18 of 49 (3219 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

"A Schutzhund dog may never be a Protection dog and vice versa. "

......you sure you want to step into that discussion?Tongue
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Mar 8, 2004, 11:36 AM

Post #19 of 49 (3218 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

hmm...

"stay on guard at all times and knowing where's the danger etc"

could you elaborate more on the "stay on guard part?" don't really get what you mean..Crazy

"I just wnat her to be a threat to potential robbers ".. when you mean threat,what do you expect her to do?

"...have what itt takes to be a good guard dog" What do you mean a "guard dog"?

I think I might've pictured things wrongly..Blush
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 8, 2004, 4:53 PM

Post #20 of 49 (3214 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

As in, just like what u told me last time when u brought either tyson or the other dog...can't remmeber his name the pointer boy for a walk that sort of situation. I want them to be a "threat" to potential attackers should i ever walk alone wth them and get assaulted. For example, if someone stopped me i want them to sense "dangeR" which i know they are able to but i want them to make the attackers know the danger and all, do u get what i mean now?

What i expect is like, some growls (showing teeth and all which signals that they're not fooling with you) or barking and all.They do respond to the word attack whenever i say it but not all the time. What i meant by guard dog is they have everything a guard dog should have which i'm not too sure what are the qualitites a gd should have. They bark all the time but mostly to stray dogs or cats and passer-bys but how would i know that it's just a normal barking without a reason or a stay-away-from-my-house bark?

Sigh, i know i'm makingthings more and more confusing. LoL. That's why i intend to get one of the retired k9 dogs from the dad's custom department. Apparently, i can actually keep them (retired ones) and stll able to bring the dog back for basic agility training :) .


boon
Doggyman


Mar 8, 2004, 6:23 PM

Post #21 of 49 (3214 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Paulynn,

A Schutzhund dog and a Protection dog is very very different. *** This one i have to agree with you but they're some overlapping drives, meaning u can have the SchH dog doing a hold & bark in defense/fight drives. Not necessary prey.

A Schutzhund dog may never be a Protection dog and vice versa. *** It really depend on how you look at it, a schh dog with proper civil agitation will do if not any better than a properly trained PP dog.

A Schuthund dog works in a definte set of parameters. But a protection dog will need to discriminate for itself what is unusual/threat in its daily environment. There are some SchH dogs that are so friendly, I'm not sure you can't take him away...Wink *** u can have a social butterfly even for a Patrol Dog. I would like to see something in between, not too friendly yet too aggressive on stranger. A good PP will have a calm and clear mind or even u can have 'parken' on command.



I do think this is a totally separate topic by itself. Too much to talk/discuss/cover under this thread.



Paulynn : Be real, even the top police patrol dog will not be able to 'on guarding' mode 24 by 7, unless it is the machine, but guess machine will need to shutdown for maintenance once in a while. lol................

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Mar 8, 2004, 6:26 PM)


PSD
ALPHA


Mar 8, 2004, 6:46 PM

Post #22 of 49 (3212 views)
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Re: [paulynn] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Actually i don't mind at all if u join in the discussion as i wanted to ask u as well but thought that it might be a too much of a "stupid" question to ask a person like you :)



The qeustion is ok. Reasonable enough for me Smile

Before you go into PP kind of ideas it is suited that u know the capability of the dog. Every individual dog has got personal traits which encompass nerve strength, courage, temprements, drive the chase and kill a prey, defensive drive to perceive a threat and the ability to bring on a fight to the end. These are the general guideline which only genetics can give you. Meaning, the the dog that is purposely bread for this purpose.

Temprements and nerve test can be done on a candidate to ascertain their capabilities by experienced persons. Perhaps u should seek to do this first, at least you will then be clear and can proceed on with the training or decide on your next step.

I do appreciate the situation you are staying in and the need for security. However equally important is the dog himself. If the dog cannot take on the stress of the work then he will not be able to perform it when that is required of him. Furthermore, a dog that is inedequate to take on such stress because of thin nerves or temprements, then they can be in a danger of bite anything that moves which includes immediate family and also you the handler. This is why we never recomend PP training for insufficient dog. As owners this is a step we must always take to be fair to the dog. Not always a nice feeling to know that the dog is insufficient but we must still be tough enough to know it.


Quote
For eg, if a friend of mine is outside and i'd still want them to stay onguard unless i say a certain word where they'll stay off guard. Is there such ways ofdoingthis anyway?



Yes

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 8, 2004, 6:55 PM

Post #23 of 49 (3210 views)
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Re: [boon] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Thanks much for giving some good advises on this.Of course i cant' expect them to stay onguard 24/7 but i guess u know what i mean , staying more alert on things that might be a threat to the family and to themselves and not just a mere bark to stray animals on the streets or people walking by. It's hard to know why are they barking sometimes. The only bark that i can differenciate is the "someone's standing infront of the door" barking. That's all i can know.My place is notorious for snatch robbers and all that (most places actually,not just mine) or just plain gangsters. And stray dogs loves roaming around the road duringmidnight and all. So whenever they bark, my parents and i wouldn't know what sort of "bark" is that :P.


paulynn
ALPHA


Mar 8, 2004, 6:59 PM

Post #24 of 49 (3209 views)
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Re: [PSD] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

Well,

Quote


Meaning, the the dog that is purposely bread for this purpose. I guess i won't be able to find out then since both my dogs are mixed breeds. Anyway i'm only asking for the basics of a guarding dog from them. No more than that. I dont expect too much from them as i know how far can they go and all that.That's why i came here to ask and see whether my way of training them is correct. :)


PSD
ALPHA


Mar 8, 2004, 7:00 PM

Post #25 of 49 (3209 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] Running/Jogging Routine [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Quote
There are some things in a dog that just cannot be minimised/maximised through training or environment.



Wilgunsr,

Everything can be minimised or maximised. It is the essense of dog behavorial itself that enable training as listed in the rule of Opperant Conditioning. I think maybe what u wanted to say is that it can only be minimised or maximised to only its genetics best or worst, nothing more or lesser than that. Smile


Also, Guard dog is not a killer dog. Rather Killer Dog is instead a neurotic dog.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

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