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stubborn walk





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nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 20, 2003, 10:16 AM

Post #1 of 56 (5024 views)
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stubborn walk Can't Post

i have been boarding my fren's lab for 3 months now n she was overall a good girl except that she is really stubborn when she goes for a walk.

she loves her daily walks but i find it a dread coz whenever she goes out for a walk, she'll pull me to wherever she likes. sometimes if i refuse to give in, she'll just stand or sit on the road n refused to follow me home. there was once when she does that i just left her there n i told her that i'm going but the moment i walk a few steps away, she begun running to where she desires. i can hardly control her. she behaves a bit when i bring a stick along but still she put up with her antics.

i have tried using choke chains n harness n it just won't work. she behaves that way even if my brother is handling her(he's stern towards her). i thought that i can work my way to change her but now i know it's difficult.

can anyone plz advise on this? thanks


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Dec 20, 2003, 10:34 AM

Post #2 of 56 (5023 views)
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Re: [nathalie] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

hi nathalie

if choke chain and harness doesn't work, have u tried a Halti on her before? at least you should be able to gain more control over her during the walks.

b'sides, a 3 months old labbie is no doubt very energetic and playful, but i'm sure u'd have the patience on that :)


nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 21, 2003, 7:39 AM

Post #3 of 56 (5012 views)
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Re: [hunter] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilethanks for ur advice but what's a halti? is it the one where u can pull the muzzle like thingy when she's disobedient?

BTW she's 2 years old...not a pup anymore Smile


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Dec 21, 2003, 10:23 PM

Post #4 of 56 (5010 views)
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Re: [nathalie] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

helloSmile,

hope you don't mind me chipping in.

A halti is also known as a gentle leader.I'll copy and paste on of the older posts.

The Gentle Leader is this sort of thing that u put on the dog's head to control the head movement. You see, a dog pulls with it's chest/neck right? And for dogs, where the head moves the body moves too. So this thing controls the head and the dog can't pull.Smile It's designed in a way that one strap is around the muzzle and one more strap arouund the neck...so to some ppl , it looks like sort of a muzzle. But the dog can still bite,bark,drink and eat Smile It's something like what they would put on a horse's head to control it.

If that doesn't work, you could try this..but it'll be alot of hard work. Dogs dislike being unbalanced..very much. So you could lift her lower end a little higher up. By putting your arm under her belly,right in front of the legs(not the stomach). Every time she pulls,gv her a warning command/cue,still doesnt listen,lift her a little. Abt 4-5 inches will do.

But all in all...lol..think halti would be greatLaughSmile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Dec 22, 2003, 5:48 AM

Post #5 of 56 (5002 views)
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Re: [nathalie,realitydreamer] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

hi nat, cloe,

from what i've learnt the gentle leader and the halti are not considered as the same type of device, but well, they work on the similar basic principles, with the concept that whenever the head goes the body follows. don't have to jerk even... just gently lead the head and the body will follow along.

some ppl would prefer the gentle leader over the halti, claiming that the halti's complicated design would injure the dog.. but some would like the halti instead for training purposes.

they're strapped around the dog's muzzle, but as chloe mentioned, does not prevent them from eating, drinking, panting and etc.

works well on uncontrollable big dogs that pulls and jumps around during walks (have seen ppl use it.. and i would say..it's even better than harnesses and flat collars), or to correct dogs that give out too much annoying barks.

hmm, maybe i'll get one for my dog toooo :>!


regards,
hunter


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Dec 22, 2003, 6:19 AM

Post #6 of 56 (5000 views)
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Re: [hunter, RealityDreamer] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi people ... Smile ...

The Gentle Leader & Halti (as Hunter says, work along the same basic principle) ... but are produced by 2 different manufacturers ...

Even design-wise they are reasonably similar, fitting behind the ear and over the muzzle, with the collar link, below the chin ...

The biggest difference I find - is that the muzzle strap on the Gentle Leader sits slightly higher on the muzzel of the dog & closer to the eyes ... Some dogs mught the fit of one more than the other ...

Cheers Smile


nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 22, 2003, 8:36 AM

Post #7 of 56 (4999 views)
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Re: [hunter] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilehi,

i know gentle leader, i've seen it in penang but u know how much it cost? around 89 for large breed dogs...

according to the leaflet, it's to slightly pull up the dog's jaws when they misbehave and to ensure they walk by your side but not as they like.

i'll maybe get one n see .....

thx anyway to all of u Smile


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Dec 22, 2003, 9:05 AM

Post #8 of 56 (4998 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

hi sk

hmmm, so gentle leader sits slightly higher on the muzzle... so does that make it better than the halti?

if u were to choose the halti and the gentle leader, which would it be then?


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Dec 22, 2003, 9:07 AM

Post #9 of 56 (4997 views)
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Re: [nathalie] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

hi

mmm, think for halti here..can find it from pets wonderland it costs like 60++ for large dogs. maybe u'd ask someone help u to buy... or maybe buy when you're down in kl?

coz 89 seems a little expensive..


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Dec 22, 2003, 6:50 PM

Post #10 of 56 (4993 views)
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Re: [hunter] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello ...

Hmmm ... which is better? ... Don't think I have a short answer to the question ... I think it depends on the dog.

I remember reading the article (you mentioned in an earlier posting) which purports to say that (a) the Gentle Leader is softer, and (b) the Halti has been known to cause injuries in aggressively pulling dogs (thus, implying that the Gentle Leader doesn't)

The "softer" part: Well, that doesn't bother me ... Work the collar with your hands, give it a wash & soak with softener, and it will get soft ... With use, our Haltis have become very pliable and comfortable for the dogs ...

The "injury" part: Personally, I find that a little hard to subscribe to idea that only the Halti can cause injuries, but the Gentle Leader does not ... because both the collars work much the same way - with pivot points under the chin (although the Gentle Leader's pivot point rests closer and more tucked under the neck) ...

Again (personally) having tried both Halti & Gentle Leader, and observed the way they work ... I would suspect, that if one type of collar can cause back/neck injuries if MISUSED - then both collars can ... and the key factor is learning how to use the collars properly ...

Any kind of collar or restraint (even harnasses) if misused, can cause problems and/or injuries ... so the idea (as always) is to appreciate the use of a type of collar and to use it properly.

We often walk the RRs together as a brace & on the odd occassion, when they decide to pull together (on conventional collars, it's like trying to hold back a train) ... For example: When careless houseowners leave their gates open, and their dogs rush out ... the collars help us restrain the RRs without causing "us" injuries ...Tongue... & allows us to quickly bring the RRs under control ...

General Cautions:

*** Don't forget to continue training ... Because the collars give such good control over a pulling dog - some owners become lazy or forget to train the dog, and rely entirely on the collars. The collars are only aids - and not solutions in themselves or substitute to proper training ... Aggressive & constant pulling on any kind of collar - increases risk of injuries to the dog.

*** Be cautious about using on young dogs ... I would not advice using the collars on young dogs, especially young but heavy dogs ... because the leverage exerted by a pivot point below the chin can be very strong ... And to only use the collars on older dogs with developed skeletal structure. For young dogs, a harness is probably safer.

*** Get the right size ... The wrong fit can cause unecessary friction between strap & skin ... and if the primary restraining strap (over the muzzle) does not fit properly, it can run and possibly hurt the dog ... Both Halti & Gentle Leader comes in a variety of sizes.

*** Fit the collar properly ... Initially, most dogs do not like the restrain over their muzzle and will try to get it off ... And if they succeed even ONCE ... they will keep on trying ... If fitted properly and used regularly - the dogs get used to the collar pretty fast ...

Cheers ... Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Dec 22, 2003, 6:52 PM)


nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 23, 2003, 5:14 AM

Post #11 of 56 (4983 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilehi,

having tried both..is it really effective n useful?

what if i use either one of them vbut she stills behave like crazy n refuse to walk n end up sitting on the floor again? coz i'm really afraid if i buy it but she still puts up her behaviour Frown


nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 23, 2003, 5:18 AM

Post #12 of 56 (4982 views)
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Re: [hunter] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilehi,

agree that 89 is quite pricey n worse is that i'm not sure wheter it works on her or not..better survey first before buying..thx anyway Smile


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Dec 23, 2003, 7:12 AM

Post #13 of 56 (4978 views)
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Re: [hunter,surchinmy] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

oops..sorryBlush

I thought Halti was a short name for GL. Thanks for pointing it out.Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Dec 23, 2003, 7:20 AM

Post #14 of 56 (4977 views)
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Re: [nathalie] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

The Halti & Gentle Leader are not so useful for trying to get dogs to walk ... they are more useful for trying control a strong dog that pulls on the leash ...

You wrote: " ... i have tried using choke chains n harness n it just won't work. she behaves that way even if my brother is handling her (he's stern towards her). i thought that i can work my way to change her but now i know it's difficult ..."

And like I mentioned in the earlier posting, these collars are not intended to be sustitute for training but as aids to training ...

Rather than a stick, pulling against or reprimanding the dog ... I'd try treats & praise (which will usually work on a Lab) ... Bring some good tasty treats when you take the Lab for a walk ... and reward the dog everytime it responds to your call and walks by your side ... You can even use a clicker to teach a dog how to walk ... Smile

And I'd spend the RM89-00 on a good training manual ... A good manual will teach you how to train the Lab to "come" & "heel" ... and it will more than repay the RM89-00 - that is for sure ... Smile

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Dec 23, 2003, 7:32 AM)


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Dec 23, 2003, 9:06 AM

Post #15 of 56 (4971 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

hie

ahh, okie, i get the idea. btw, i think soaking the collar with softener is a brilliant idea~! least it'll help let the dogs get used with this new thing on their nose bridge.

and yes i agree, any collar will be dangerous for the dog if misused by the owner.

great pointers posted. hmm, just wondering, u think a pug can wear a halti :D ?


PSD
ALPHA


Dec 23, 2003, 9:02 PM

Post #16 of 56 (4967 views)
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Re: [nathalie] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
she loves her daily walks but i find it a dread coz whenever she goes out for a walk, she'll pull me to wherever she likes. sometimes if i refuse to give in, she'll just stand or sit on the road n refused to follow me home. there was once when she does that i just left her there n i told her that i'm going but the moment i walk a few steps away, she begun running to where she desires. i can hardly control her. she behaves a bit when i bring a stick along but still she put up with her antics



Nathalie actually this is quite simple to cure. I didnt know hoe old this lab is. All collar types does not matter in this but personally I like buckle collar or a choke chain (inactivated) means lock it without allowing it to activate the choking action. The idea is simple but u have to go in phases of learning

Learning phase

1) when u open the door for the walks, i'm sure the lab will try to rush. Just hold on strongly and not move, dont even look at him just eye him by the corner of your eye. He will pull harder but u continue to be a lamppost.

2) He will then at one point turn and look at you which you quickly praise him happily like u have won a lottery and continue with a step or 2 forward.

3) he will surely pull again and u repeat (1)

In the begining, it looks like you will not be able to move very far from your house but this is necessary to build a strong foundation of the learning phase so that it can proceed fast after this. U need to do this for up to a week to ensure that he has got the idea.

Proofing Phase

1) After a week he should have the idea and will not pull as much if at all.

2) This time he has already know that pulling gets him nothing. In this stage we are going to increase the stake further. Not only we want him to know pulling gets nowhere, we also want him to know that pulling may get him poped.

3) this time activate the choker. If he forgets and pulls say a firm "SLOW" and follow with a firm "Pop" on the choke chain and when he stops praise him. When I mean pop I meant a reasonable firm surprising one. Also the step should be Pull-SLOW-POP-PRAISE not the other way around.

If you do it correctly I'm sure this will solve the pulling problem. Of course this is meant for a pet dog and not a competition dog. Good luck

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


aragorn2976
Ultra ALPHA


Dec 23, 2003, 10:04 PM

Post #17 of 56 (4965 views)
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Re: [PSD] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Great tips!! Thanks alot!!!

Am using the lamp-post tip and I can tell you, it works! My dog doesn't pull now. She knows that when I start walking, she has to walk and must not pull. Smile

However, am having a slight problem with my dog biting the leash. I am trying this out, where I will stand like a lamp post but I step on the leash so that she will release it. When she releases it, I praise her and will continue walking. However, she still doesn't quite get it that I don't want her to bite the leash when we are walking.

Any tips on that? I've read somewhere about putting some diluted vinegar on the leash to discourage biting. Does this work?

She only does this when we're walking.



Join the JRT Zone


Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. - 1 John 4:7 (Oofy's motto)


PSD
ALPHA


Dec 24, 2003, 1:22 AM

Post #18 of 56 (4962 views)
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Re: [aragorn2976] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn,

U know I dont trust much about applying all sorts of thing to prevent biting. Most of the time it is not necessary. have a good treat that the dog likes alot. I like to use cut up sausages but it has to be something that ur dog likes alot. If the dog bites then say a laud "Hait" or whatever word u like best. but use the same word everytime and make it "laud enough and surprising". Once he stop or surprised of look up at you immediately praise and give food. Then stand and go through it again.

Remember the chain Bite-HAIT-Stop-Praise-food the sequence is very important and dont mix them up.

The above is on learning part. U still need to do proofing. On the proofing time after u go through the learning phase for at least 1 week of same excercise, once u see fido reacting to your cue word "HAIT" 80% of the time and expects to be rewarded then u can start proofing. the sequence is added with a correction in this way.

BITE-HAIT-POP-STOP-PRAISE-FOOD

This is to have reliability. Your learning phase can be longer as long as it work at the hait part only one day where he chose to challenge you then is the time to add in the "PoP". Please remember after pop quickily commence with a big praise and food to bring the attitude up again. good luck.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


aragorn2976
Ultra ALPHA


Dec 24, 2003, 1:35 AM

Post #19 of 56 (4961 views)
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Re: [PSD] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi!

Thanks for the great tip!

You're right, I need to spend a lot more time on the proofing. Unsure She knows that when I say "Hait", she is not supposed to do something bad. However, she's a stubborn dog and I've got to say it a few more times. Nevertheless, with time, she will be more well-behaved.

Thanks again! Smile



Join the JRT Zone


Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. - 1 John 4:7 (Oofy's motto)


PSD
ALPHA


Dec 24, 2003, 1:37 AM

Post #20 of 56 (4960 views)
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Re: [aragorn2976] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

 

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mackmack
Doggyman


Dec 24, 2003, 5:14 AM

Post #21 of 56 (4954 views)
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Re: [nathalie] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Gentle Leader works very well on so i can have the "strength" to walk him. But that doesn't mean he would behave like "well-trained" and heel with me. Just that when he does the pulling, i could control him and restrain him from hard pulling.


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Kowpa
Member

Dec 24, 2003, 5:20 AM

Post #22 of 56 (4952 views)
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Re: [aragorn2976] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Please don't blame the dog they are not stubborn, we are stupid lol


nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 24, 2003, 6:00 AM

Post #23 of 56 (4949 views)
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Re: [PSD] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilehi,

thanks for ur detailed method..i'll try tonite n see whether it works or not...especially on a stubborn lab like her. anyway i'll really have to try coz i'm getting really tired of taking her for a walk...she's got so much energy n the moment she pulls me...i'll almost fall Frown


nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 24, 2003, 6:03 AM

Post #24 of 56 (4948 views)
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Re: [mackmack] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilehi,

that's why..when they pull they r full of force....anyway i'lkl try PSD's idea first before getting a gentle leader. if it works then i don't think i need one Smile


nathalie
Doggyman


Dec 24, 2003, 6:08 AM

Post #25 of 56 (4947 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] stubborn walk [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilehi,

u mean i start training her using treats? to be honest i think she's not wiling to learn....i have been teaching her to gime me her hand for almost 2 months now n she still does not know what does hand means...i've tried according to the books but still she's just aiming for the treats..even if i hold the treats away from her for 20 mins..she still refuse to gimme her hands..

i know training her's gonna be really hard..however i'll try. thanks Smile

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