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Train 2 behaviours at once ... ???

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 10, 2004, 2:25 AM Views: 3674 Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... This is most interesting ... something new ... well, it's new for me ... ... by: Karen Pryor Train two behaviors at once? Teach two cues simultaneously? How? Why? Teaching certain cues in pairs can speed up the learning process, as well as teaching a dog a concept that it can apply to new learning. Choose two behaviors that are opposites: step forward/step backward, over/under, and paw/nose, for example. Click and treat them alternately so that the very clear difference between the behaviors, and their cues, becomes one more piece of information for the dog. Teaching a dog discrimination by training paired, opposite behaviors moves learning along so quickly, you may find yourself establishing behaviors and cues in a single session. To do so, however, you need to capture or provoke two distinct behaviors. Take the paired, opposite behaviors of bark/quiet. To put both on cue quickly and simultaneously, try the following steps: Begin when the dog is barking. It is handy to have a barky dog. If you need to provoke the behavior, however, a knock on a nearby door or table will usually set off a barker. Click, give a treat, and, as the dog is swallowing, startle the dog by making a "Stop" hand signal in front of its face (or any other signal that you know will focus the dog's attention.) The dog will react with a little sign of surprise; perhaps an anxious look, maybe a slight calming signal such as a head turn. At that instant of response in surprise, click and again treat. (Hold treats in your clicker hand, for this stunt.) The dog eats the treat. Now wait until the dog barks again (or provoke a bark if necessary). Click, treat, hand gesture, click, treat; repeat. So, what's happening? You are provoking the behavior of barking (or, better yet, the dog is barking spontaneously), and you are reinforcing it. You are then provoking another, opposite behavior, and reinforcing it. There are no cues established yet; just two opposite behaviors which you are clicking and treating alternately. Note that you are not alternately clicking and reinforcing barking and the absence of barking. Paired cues work not as present/absent cues, but do this/do that cues. In the case of Bark/Quiet, you are reinforcing barking and its opposite, the tiny response of surprise however your dog expressed it-a flinch or head turn or lifted ear-that you provoked with a "Stop" hand signal. The dog may have perceived it as "Close my mouth" or "Turn my head" (with mouth closed as part of it) or "Duck" or "Look worried" or whatever it was doing that was marked by the click and earned the reinforcer. But it definitely did something, and you clicked that something. What's next? When two behaviors begin to look the least little bit operant, that is, you see the dog beginning to do them with some awareness, then add the verbal cue "Bark!" to the bark. Use the hand signal as a cue for "Look silently" or "Mouth shut." Build duration on the anti-bark behavior (whatever your dog has offered and you have reinforced). Transfer the hand signal to a verbal cue, "Quiet," or "Silence, please," whenever the behavior and cue are well established. Cheers

aragorn2976 Ultra ALPHA Mar 10, 2004, 2:34 AM Views: 3672 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Wow.. You are right.. This is absolutely interesting... I haven't tried clicker training before, but I'd guess this technique is very suited with the clicker.... Otherwise, I'm wondering, how am I going to apply it to our "traditional" training?? Join the JRT Zone Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. - 1 John 4:7 (Oofy's motto)

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 10, 2004, 5:10 AM Views: 3666 Re: [aragorn2976] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Yeah ... that's what I thought originally when I first read it - needs a clicker ... but having read it again ... I think it's possible to do it without the clicker ... Although the clicker makes it easier, the key elements to the procedure can be achieved without the clicker ... But if you haven't tried the clicker (especially because you seem very interested in training) - you should ... it really is a lot of fun ... Cheers

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 10, 2004, 9:20 PM Views: 3657 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, this is interesting. Only afraid my rascals will be too eager to obey BARK and then conveniently ignore QUIET, hahahaha. Anyway, my doggies training seems to be getting very basic and casual. Must be the lazy trainer concentrating on their habits in their environment rather than responses to commands. Maybe it is time to buy another book on training. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 10, 2004, 11:34 PM Views: 3655 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Ah ... your concern is that your little doggies might not obey the command for "quiet" ... ... Well, K.Pryor was one of the first (if not the first) to introduce clicker training to dogs & she does have extensive experience training a variety of animals, including dolphins ... So, if she believes it works - I will go along with that and suggest (if you are interested) to give it a try - and maybe be pleasantly surprised ... when you Beagles learn when not to bark ... ... I might give it a go with one of our doggies ... and see how ... At worse, it will be a learning for me, and I'm rather intrigued by this concept of training 2 behaviours in the same sequence. Cheers PS ... Maybe you'd like to check this one out ... Have always liked Skete Monks ... this revised edition is supposed to incorporate the changes in training trends since the 1st edition ... http://www.amazon.com/.../104-2843090-5985532

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 11, 2004, 5:53 PM Views: 3644 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, I guess I am not ambitious about my doggies training. So far I have only focused on the basics which I hope will be a firm foundation. Toilet training looks like still a work in progress. It wasnt going well for a while when the weather was hotter around the start of the year. The doggies often reverted to resting around the drain which was cooler and pooping around the crate, which was the other way around. So, I tiled the whole area including where the pond used to be, which is the cooler end. That is where they take their day naps and peeing is consistently at the drain now. A coffee table and a bench to take cover under also helped. Fancy all that, hahaha. I am working at the pooping which is still free style. I observed that at 8 months old they do their duty when they wake up and at 8-9 hour later. The trouble is they wont leave their poop alone and will mess up afterwards. Walking them earlier in the afternoon at 4pm worked to preempt the afternoon pooping. I woke up at 6.00am this morning trying to preempt their early morning indoor bombing session but that was still too late. My guess now is that all the noise outside from school buses and newspaper delivery, wake them up early. I have already tried taking them out at 10pm to poop before they sleep but they still wake up very early and need to bomb first thing. So, now I may have to wake up at 5.00am or sound-proof the garden, hahahaha. Hope it will get better as they grow older and their bowel control improves. Any suggestions? Wah, so lenghty on toilet training. I guess that is central to a happy co-existance. They will consistently respond to SIT command so that is one reliable element. It is SIT to me but probably FEED ME to them, hahaha. The COME recall only works when they are attentive but they are easily distracted by scrapes on the ground and other dogs. I will move on to DOWN and STAY next. So you see training 2 behaviours at once seems advanced. Maybe just a slow trainer, hahaha. Will be interested to hear on your progress tho. Best regards,J

snoopydog Enthusiast Mar 11, 2004, 8:18 PM Views: 3640 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi J, If it's any consolation, thought you might want to know that Beagles are known to play with their poop (according to some articles I read somewhere). Mine does too. I've been trying to break her habit for the last 1.5 years, but no luck, not even when I catch her "red-handed". So, the only thing I try to do is to pick it up as soon as she does her business. I've run out of ideas already. As for obedience, Bodhi was surprisingly easy to train for a beagle. Especially with positive training methods. I found that Bodhi responded very well with the "soft approach" rather than the "hard approach" (if there's such a term). I wonder if all beagles are like that? Yes, a Beagle is an extremely subborn breed and there are days when she just will not pay attention. I think that's perfectly ok. Even humans have off-days too, right? But once you get them started, you'll be surprised how quickly they learn. My two-cents worth of advice is, continue to focus on the basics - i.e. your sits, downs, stays, stand & recall...and you'll have two very liveable beagles. Once they've mastered that, make your training even more fun for them. For example, build on the basic commands and play games with them - e.g. fetch, jump, tricks etc. Maybe even try agility. I think dogs in general will willingly do things if there's some fun in it. Every moment is a training opportunity. For example, whenever there's a commercial break or something like that, I'll make Bodhi do something. And if she's lying quietly, I praise her like mad and even give a small treat. Although she ever so playful and hyperactive, she has improved so much from her puppy days. With you, I'm sure Sparky and Picnic are in the right hands. Good luck and remember, make it fun for them. Let beagles be beagles! .

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 11, 2004, 9:37 PM Views: 3636 Re: [snoopydog] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi, well said as a true Beagler. Yes, thanks for the assurances and encouragement. Playing with poop is a messy and irritating habit. But like yourself I dont see any short and easy solution. I have noticed that my 2 rascals willingly do their duty on grass so I am hoping that I can time their walks to minimise the cleaning inside. So far, I have figured out how to avoid a mess in the course of a day. And I am trying to push my luck with the early morning session, hahahaha. I have also had the same experience with training them. They are fast to learn and very resistant to compulsion. Great attitude I think, hahaha. And I would go along with your style of sticking to the basics and having fun. Indeed, let beagles be beagles. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 11, 2004, 11:30 PM Views: 3632 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Yeaps ... same same here - training basics is good enough for us too ... Although there is one element that we work on quite seriously ... a command that immediately recalls ALL our dogs ... For obvious reasons, we feel more secure knowing that we have such a command ... If you are interested in this ... drop me a line. Free-style, aptly describes Beagles ... Okay ... let's see if I get your your doggies "premises" correctly: ... They are out-door but sheltered ... their primary living area (when not on lenghty jogs around the world) is a secured & tiled area next to the drain where they are supposed to eliminate ... They also have a crate. I will also assume ... (a) They share a common crate ... (b) ... They are still fed twice a day ... (b) They are not eating but only playing with the poop. Suggestions??? ... Hmmm ... Fact to accept: At 8 months, they are getting close to having full bowel control ... and unless you come up with a new element to change it ... the situation may become routine and habit for the Beagles ... and continue. And the danger is, if dogs play with poop, it's a very short step to eating the poop ... and then it becomes more difficult ... Problem/issue: They poop early ... and mess up their poop before anyone else is up. Dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to get up at 5am just to catch dog poop ... ... Possible solution: So, I figure the solution is to either (a) get the dogs to poop later ... or (b) train them not to play with poop ... (c) or both, but in the correct sequence ... whatever works easiest ... I think getting them to poop later is the natural first step ... otherwise you'll have to get up early enough to catch them at their first poop ... But if you can get them to poop at a decent later time, then you can more easily train them not to mess with poop. Getting some control over poop time: (A) Control feeding & drinking: As you have discovered, dogs with developed bowels will need to eliminate about 8 hrs after the last meal ... Maybe you can try what we do ... (i) We feed main meal in the morning ... (ii) We limit water intake after 8pm or so ... Taken together ... by bed time (approx:11/12pm) our dogs have very much emptied their bladders and bowels ... and they quite happily wait till 7.30am the next day. Your dogs can probably make do with one meal from about 11 to 12 months ... But if you feed twice, then maybe move the 2nd meal earlier ... so that they have the 8hrs before bedtime ... (B) Reinforce the dogs' basic instinct of not pooping where they sleep and eat: (i) Revert to Crate Training: To my mind ... best and easiest way (in limited space) to control time of elimination when people are not around is to - crate train the dogs ... If a dog is taught that his/her crate is the their den, refuge and sleep place ... then as long as the dog is in the crate ... it will instinctively hold elimination (within reason) until released ... Once the concept & instinct is encouraged and grounded, the concept of the crate can be safely enlarged to be a open sleeping area or a room ... So, you might want to teach your dogs to accept their crate as a den (best to get them individual crates) ... control timing of food & water intake and confine them to their crates at night ... keep fingers crossed ... and condition them to hold elimination until you release them at a decent time in the morning. If you try this method ... you will have to begin by ... (a) Providing individual crates of the correct size, not small but also not too big (or they will poop in the corner of the crate) ... (b) Releasing them early (at their current waking up & pooping time) and then gradually & slowly re-condition them by delaying the release time by 10minutes or so until you reach your decent hour ... How fast or slow this takes, depends on your dogs ... The key to this method is to do it so slowly - so that you minimise mistakes & don't force your dogs to eliminate in the crate. But if you haven't taught your dogs to crate when young, you will probably have to put up with them struggling and fighting the crate for a while ... before they get used to it ... (ii) Moving sleeping area away???: If you are not inclined to the above, then maybe you can try moving their sleeping area further away from the drain ... and make their resting/sleeping place very different & more comfortable than the area around the drain. The concept remains the same - basically trying to teach the dogs to identify and associate a particular place for a particular purpose. Save and except for elimination, they are not allowed to do anything like play or eat anywhere near the elimination/drain area ... Everytime after elimination, they are encouraged by recall, praise & reward to move immediately away from the elimination area ... That way, you may be able to sufficiently condition your dogs to move away from the drain area after elimination, even when no one is around. But I think it's difficult to achieve any consistency with this method ... it might work, if you change their sleeping area to a totally different area ... otherwise the routine may already be too set for a minor change in sleep area to make any difference to the dogs. Personally, with your your circumstances in mind, and with Beagles - I'd go with controlling food & water times, and simultaneously crate training ... What we did was ... start our puppies with crate training to reinforced the instinct not to eliminate in their sleeping area ... once that instinct was encouraged and habit grounded ... we started leving the crate doors open (they would return into their crates quite willingly) ... and eventually we removed the crates altogether just leaving their bedding ... and now they will not eliminate in the doggy room ... and wait for release in the morning ... *Whisper* ... except our Beagle, who still has her crate ... Cheers

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 12, 2004, 10:27 PM Views: 3621 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, thanks vm for your ideas. Read your reply many times to think it through. Yes, poop catching at 5am is a non-starter. Actually I feel it in my bones that this challenge has a solution if we can just solve the puzzle. Basically, my puppies have good instincts. They have never pooped or peed in their crate. And they willingly do their duty on grass during their walks. They dont poop everything indoors in the early mornings and hold the big job for the walk later. So I suspect they feel the urge to poop but still prefer to do it outside. I am not sure they can hold it for another 1-2 hours. I had thought it wasn't a good idea to feed them once a day at 8 months old. Do you think 3/4 of their food in the morning around 8am and 1/4 earlier in the afternoon around 3pm is ok? Do I have to restrict their water at night if their peeing isnt a problem or will that also affect their pooping? I have used a crate in their toilet-training but they have not been crate trained. They seem to prefer sleeping under the table, at a corner or out in the open instead of the crate. However, they are not averse to the crate. They remain quiet when crated for 1/2 hour while I wash their area and fetch the children to school before their walk. When I had 2 compartments to prevent them fighting they still prefered to sleep together in the same small compartment. Is it ok to crate them together? I originally thought this problem would be easier handled when the doggies are older at 1 year, but now also concerned that it may form into a bad habit which would be difficult to break. Er, I am not confident of trying to prevent their poop playing and eating habit. Beagles dont have a good record here and I have observed that their poop smell very much like the kibble they eat. They can vacuum all the food and leave a pip of garlic behind, so there goes the garlic solution. I have seen pills on sale to prevent their poop eating but would prefer not to use chemicals. Thanks again and wish us luck, heheheh. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 12, 2004, 11:51 PM Views: 3618 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Will reply to your queries & points ... easiest first ... ... (a) Garlic - Yes, we prefer fresh garlic too ... crush the garlic cloves and then mix well into the food - that way they cannot pick. Can also disquise smell of garlic by adding a little bit of honey or squeeze of lemon juice into the food. (b) Crating together ... With pups, it's okay ... but I would personally hesitate at crating 2 adults together, more for safety than anything else - just in case they have a disagreement ... and in event of disagreement, I'd rather not have the dogs confined in the same crate, with no room to move and evade. But you will know the temperament of your dogs best. (c) Feeding @3pm ... I think for Beagles at 8/9 months ... you can certainly give the main meal in the morning with a lighter meal in the afternoon @ 3pm ... that should be okay. (d) Peeing & relationship to pooping ... My feeling is - if you are trying and train the dogs to poop at the correct time, I would also control the water too - at least initially ... So, if the dogs make a mistake and poop at the wrong time - I won't have to sit & scratch head - trying to figure out whether the accidential poop was caused by a need to poop, or a need to poop brought about by need to pee ... *LOL* ... Later on in the training, when things are more settled - you can reintroduce the water if you wish. (e) Poop eating/playing - Yes, unfortnately you are right ... Beagles have a pretty bad record with this ... Adding Keepers' Mix seems to be receiving much recommendation ... Keepers' Mix helps with proper digestion and provides trace elements (the lacking of which may be encouraging poop eating) ... maybe you can give it a try. Can order from forum. (f) Basis of suggestions ... I based my suggestions on the following (a) A dogs' strong instinct not to poop where they sleep ... (b) A dog's remarkable ability to tell time (without a watch ) ... and (c) the fact that dogs, are creatures of habit and routine ... if we can but set & ground a routine, the dogs will (most of the time) follow that routine. When a dog is pooping at 5am, it's hard to be there to train the dog not to play with poop ... Much easier to use the basics above, to train the dog not to poop until release from sleeping area. Hence the suggestion to (i) crate train (to teach the dogs that they have a specific sleeping area)... (ii) control food & water intake (to help reduce need to eliminate at wrong time or place) ... and (c) the "delay sequence" (to bring pooping time back to a decent hour). As long as the basic rational is maintained ... you can modify the suggestions to suit your circumstances ... For eg: If the dogs naturally prefer to sleep under the table, then maybe instead of using crate/s - confine/fence of the area under the table instead and identify that as the sleeping area ... and teach the dogs not to poop there - until release. You posted: " ... Basically, my puppies have good instincts. They have never pooped or peed in their crate. And they willingly do their duty on grass during their walks. They dont poop everything indoors in the early mornings and hold the big job for the walk later. So I suspect they feel the urge to poop but still prefer to do it outside. I am not sure they can hold it for another 1-2 hours ..." Hmmm ... I think that's very good ... because, if you are correct, then your dogs are only pooping because they are still unable to fully control or hold their poop ... And if so, then the whole matter may be resolved when you reduce the amount of the 2nd meal, and thus, reduce pressure on bowels in the morning ... Not forgetting that their ability to control bowel movement might still improve over the next couple of months. Cheers (This post was edited by Khoobg on Mar 15, 2004, 9:42 PM)

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 13, 2004, 12:38 AM Views: 3615 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, thanks for thinking through this with me. Sure will relief the patch on my head where I have been scratching the past few weeks, hehehe. I feel good about this. Today I have shifted their walk and evening meal to 3pm. Tonight I will keep their water bottle at 8pm and take them out at 10pm to eliminate. Then I will confine them under the coffee table. The table is 3x3feet and just fits into those 3 feet adjustable wire fences. Will leave a nice floor mat and their plastic chew bones to make it comfortable. Hope they wont complain too verbally. Tomorrow morning I will let them out early at 6.30am and gradually stretch the time. With the school holidays next week, I can time the morning release without constraints. And tomorrow onwards I will feed 3/4 in the morning and 1/4 in the afternoon. Wish me luck, hehehe. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 13, 2004, 1:28 AM Views: 3613 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? All the best ...

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 13, 2004, 11:10 PM Views: 3606 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, glad to report that it has gone well so far. I havent had to scrub and wash since yesterday early morning when I normally have to, once or twice daily. Picnic did small soft jobs with pooping on the 3pm walk and 10pm excursion. So, I think she can probably hold for a later afternoon walk. It can be scorching hot that early. Sparky didnt poop at 3pm but did 2 small jobs indoors 8-9pm. Not too bad - one near the newspaper and the other spot on. But he made a snack of the one off the mark. He abstained at 10pm. Perhaps Sparky is tuned for a later session at 4-5pm. And it looks like he can hold his own through the night. As planned, I crated them for the night. They seemed to have settled for the coffee table so no persuasion was needed. Not a whimper when I confined them under the table with the wire fence, Wow. They just went back to sleep and were quiet till release at 6.30am, rah rah rah. I really had it easy. Everything was clean in the morning and they were not even urgent when I took them out. They were cool about being crated, phew. I crated them together cos they seem to prefer being together when they rest. It looked like they can hold their bowels a bit longer with the new arrangements. I think I will try to delay walking them till 4pm today. Today they will only get 1/4 of their food in the afternoon. Continue to remove their water at 8pm and let them out to eliminate at 10pm. And will release them 5 minutes later every morning. Hope to get to 7.20am by the time school reopens. I guess I will continue crating them till the habit sets and they are older at a year old. Hope it is not too early to affirm that Beagles can be crate and toilet trained easily. Anyway, I am still keeping my fingers crossed for the next sessions. Thanks and best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 14, 2004, 1:25 AM Views: 3601 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Great - well done ... ... Just a couple of thoughts ... (a) If Picnic has "soft" poops at 3pm ... it could be because morning meal has a little too much food for her ... so, maybe you'd like to cut back on the morning meal just a little and see how it goes ... And poop eating can throw the bowel timing off ... if you can stop them snacking on poop - that would be good. Besides, it's never too early to try and stop the poop eating habit ... (b) I think you can walk them in the evening when its cooler ... I don't think the timing of the walks will make any major difference to your recheduling of poop times ... If you can get them to poop before sleep - that will probably be enough. Hugs to the pups ... Cheers (This post was edited by surchinmy on Mar 14, 2004, 1:27 AM)

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 14, 2004, 7:08 AM Views: 3596 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, day 2 and all is still going well. They are quietly crated for the night again. Picnic just didnt poop in the afternoon despite a 2 1/2 km walk from 330-5pm. But it looked like she really didnt have to. They both pooped when I let them out at 10pm before sleeping, so everything is on track again, phew. About the soft poop - normally it is dry and firm except for the very end. The soft bit at the end sort of tells me that the job is done. Anyway, it isnt cos I fed them too much this morning cos I forgot to thaw extra, hehehe. But made sure to do it right for tomorrow morning. I think you are right that the timing of the afternoon walk doesnt really matter. So I will avoid anyone getting sunstroke. Stop them snacking on poop - I will need to do some poop catching when indoors. That is not easy cos they will poop when we turn away. My best chance is to time their pooping with taking them out, to avoid any opportunity for them to do it. Best regards,J

a_evie Doggyman Mar 15, 2004, 9:06 PM Views: 3584 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? read ur progress...sounds good and fun! too bad i don;t have a garden...otherwise, it does sound liek agood idea to do what you've done in your garden. now i havee still to contend myslef to clean the bathroom daily. the little girl would still pee on her papers when we are not at home...and yes, play and eat her poo somedays too... i am so out of idea what makes her eat her poo sometimes. i really wonder whether she eats her poo coz she is hungry...but again she has so much to eat and is gaining her pounds really quick. another forum i subscribe to encourages the use of meat tenderizers. am so upset with her poo eating...i just bought myself some meat tenderizers for tonight's meal.. she generally would peepoo outside when we go walkies but somehow she will still need to poo indoors too. strange....

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 15, 2004, 11:23 PM Views: 3575 Re: [a_evie,surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Evie, thanks for taking an interest. Sorry to burst the bubble. Day 3 ended badly and it looks like we are back to square one. The doggies didnt make it till the 10pm poop call before bedtime. When I came back home from roaming 1Utama, I was met with a poop mess. I think it was a mistake to assume that since they had pooped they didnt need to go outside before sleeping. They pooped in their sleeping area where they were confined overnight. And they still had more to do during the morning walk later. Only 6 hours later, they poop all over again when I was out for lunch. So I have had to soap and scrub 3 times in the past 16 hours. Maybe they are taking revenge for being crated. Anyway, I will persist with some modifications. Looks like this thread is turning into a diary of a poop scientist. Best regards,J

a_evie Doggyman Mar 16, 2004, 1:34 AM Views: 3569 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? i think they were just being upset... shalom does the most unthinkable when she is upset...almost like a revenge...but see how it goeslah...they may have eaten some extras that required more pooh sessions. anyway, they are still pups.can't expect such good muscle control yet.

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 16, 2004, 4:07 AM Views: 3568 Re: [a_evie] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Evie, luckily they are so cute. Otherwise, I may feel like strangling them for pooping all over so often, hahaha. I am a bit disappointed but not discouraged cos I am prepared to rough it out with the 2 rascals till they mature at 1 year. Actually, they are very well behaved Beagles. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 16, 2004, 8:16 AM Views: 3564 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? I think strangling the dog is a thought that crosses the mind of all Beagle owners at some point ... that thought has certainly crossed mine many times ... ... But the bubble hasn't burst yet ... maybe sprung a little leak ... but still holding out ... *laughs* ... Don't forget ... over the weekend ... you changed the food schedule, changed food amount, applied a modified form of crate training ... and started delay schedule for morning poop ... that's quite a few changes especially for pups ... and mistakes are going to happen ... Maybe pushing them to hold elimination during the evening was just asking that little too much too soon ... Also, all your changes (so far) are concentrated on helping sort out the morning poop ... and not for other elimination times ... I think the most important element right now is to adjust whatever is necessary to ensure they don't poop inside their den ... to just keep reinforcing that good instinct first before attempting anything else ... Focus on making sure they poop before bedtime at 10pm, and helping them keep the den clean until release in morning ... As for the rest of the day, unless you can be around to let them out regularly & prevent pooping in the den ... I'd not confine them to the den yet ... I think I'd rather they mess up outside the den than poop inside the den, and undo the good that is being done during the night ... And perhaps, for the time being ... try keep their meal composition as consistent as possible ... don't introduce any new foods for the time being ... and that should help with regularise their elimination times. One thought ... freshly prepared foods pass through a dog's system faster than kibble ... The general estimate is that a pure fresh food meal can be ready for elimination within 4 to 5 hours. I remember you saying that you are giviing combination of fresh foods & kibble ... you might like to try giving the kibble portion in the morning and just the freshly prepared food at 3pm ... this might help them clear out their system before 10pm. Once again all the best ... (This post was edited by surchinmy on Mar 16, 2004, 8:21 AM)

aragorn2976 Ultra ALPHA Mar 16, 2004, 4:56 PM Views: 3558 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi... Sorry that this reply is really late. Hv been superbusy at work... *sigh*.. Snoopy keeps me sane with her antics... Anyway, I'd have to agree with you. The clicker does help in the procedure but if the dog can differentiate the tones in the voice, am sure that you can use this to train him. Hehe.. I haven't tried clicker training though I've seen it at many pet stores. Anyway, if I do use it, I think I'll see Snoopy tilting her head from left to right because its and interesting sound...!! ... I might give it a try because I think it would grab her attention.. Join the JRT Zone Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. - 1 John 4:7 (Oofy's motto)

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 16, 2004, 6:25 PM Views: 3553 Re: [aragorn2976] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... no problems ... work has a habit of interferring with life ... *LOL*... Yeah ... give the clicker a go ... I remember when I first tried it a few years back ... I was completely blown away by how effective it is ... If you are interested let me know and I can send you some interesting sites etc ... Cheers

a_evie Doggyman Mar 16, 2004, 6:38 PM Views: 3551 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? they are cute..and frankly quite angelic looking... can't say the same for the rascal in shalom...too hypoer and too cheeky...she seems to be teasing a game out of me daily. thre i am trying to dress up for work...and she'll start picking things for me to throw or even wear. each time a drawer or door is left open...she'll pick something for me....and waga her tail. of couse if she picks the one i want is oklah...but she has a nick to pick everything out one by one. of course her most useful is alway...fetch mummy's bag...she would not go wronglah...since it is always placed on the bed...and she'll start dragging the beg....quite kesian but also quite a site to behold... how was this morning with the 2 furkids?

a_evie Doggyman Mar 16, 2004, 6:48 PM Views: 3550 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? would be good if you ccould share somee here too... was informed that they are conducting clicker classes in sri hartamas...quite keen but would need to evaluate further plus verify that time constraints due to work is not an issue.

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 16, 2004, 7:00 PM Views: 1883 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, thanks for the encouragement. Day 4 ended 50/50 with Picnic pooping during the 5pm walk and Sparky during the 10pm toilet session. But I didnt crate them overnight this time. I figured that if they were going to poop anyway I would prefer for it to happen outside their sleeping area. Also better preserve their keep-home-clean instinct like you suggested in the latest posting. I didnt know what to expect for Day 5 but surprise, surprise. I found the floor sparkling clean at 6.45am. Then both pooped during their 7am walk. Maybe we are on the roll again, haahahah. And fortunately I hadnt strangled them yesterday, hahahahaha. Yes, many changes were made over the weekend. From morning 50% kibble, evening 50% raw to morning 75% raw and evening 25% kibble. Crate-training and shifting walking and meal times. Now, it would seem that an earlier afternoon walk was not necessary, phew. I will still feed them the main meal in the morning. Better not change this again so soon. Restricting water after 8pm and the 10pm toilet call before sleeping are musts. Yesterday they pooped early in the afternoon after guzzling the whole bottle in the morning. For the time being I will see if we can do without crating overnight. Maybe we can see how the puppies settle into this arrangement in the next few days. My fingers are still crossed, heheheh. Thanks again and best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 16, 2004, 8:31 PM Views: 1880 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Little recap ... with your current modifications ... you are basically going to JUST rely on the rescheduling of feeding & water to help delay earling morning elimination ... Should be okay, because as you mentioned in earlier posting ... your pups' difficulty holding in morning, may be just because of the timing of the evening meal ... Cheers ...

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 16, 2004, 9:02 PM Views: 1877 Re: [a_evie, aragorn2976] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Here are the clicker sites ... This is the K Pryor's site ... you can sign up and get regular updates ... www.clickertraining.com/home/index.htm These are sites with good basic information on clicker training and the basic principles: www.clickertrain.com/ www.wagntrain.com/OC/ www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm Cheers

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 16, 2004, 9:03 PM Views: 1876 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, fancy it now boils down to these 2 simple steps. Well, I hope this is one of those simple things which works best. And anyway, initially we didnt really have a good feel about what might work and what might not. So we tried everything to stack the chances for success. Maybe we can be more focused after the brief trial and error. And we also want to avoid any side effects. So we are now concentrating on the early morning pooping as you suggested. Meanwhile ensure they dont poop in their sleeping area and keep other factors stable. Sounds good, hehehhe. Thanks again and best regards,J

a_evie Doggyman Mar 17, 2004, 12:39 AM Views: 1870 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? thanx!! are you doing clicker with ur furkids? btw...no pics of them??

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 17, 2004, 3:59 AM Views: 1869 Re: [a_evie] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hmmm ... I don't think I'd call what I do clicker training ... more like clicker playing ... *LOL* ...

a_evie Doggyman Mar 17, 2004, 7:08 PM Views: 1864 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? playing? i would say that everything is play to shalom. she takes joy in whatever that we subject her too...even her showers and visit to the vet. i mean its strange to see her wagging her tail at her vet...waiting to be carried...even in the examination room. no hard feeling even when the guy jabs her or take her temperature...still busy tring to lick the vet and the helper like gila. sometimes i wonder whether she is mad....

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 19, 2004, 7:55 PM Views: 1858 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? hi Surchinmy, it is DAY 8 and it looks good. The doggies have not pooped indoors at all for 4 days, since DAY 5. They have adjusted to the changes in their feeding and walking patterns. I have also adjusted to taking them out before bedtime. Yesterday, Picnic staged a rebellion. She did not poop in the afternoon or night, escaped her collar during the 10pm toilet session and ran around the field like an escaped convict. I crated her overnight and she held on till the next morning. That means she didnt poop for 24hours. Dunno whether she actually did poop when I took Sparky home and got some food to lure her back. Anyway, she didnt complain being crated alone. We have gotten back into the routine when both did their duty during this morning's walk. Now I have to shift the morning release further from the current 700am to 720am when school reopens on Monday. But the results does look consistent and our efforts successful. What wonderful puppies, hehehehe. We are still talking about toilet training Beagles here, heheheh. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 19, 2004, 8:03 PM Views: 1856 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? YES!!! ... sounds good ... well done ... ... Think you have done a great job with your puppies ... Cheers

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 19, 2004, 8:12 PM Views: 1853 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, thanks vm for your guidance. I guess it is not too early to pat ourselves on the back, heheheh. Sorry to have turned this thread into another on pooping. But at least this one has a happy ending. Best regards.J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Mar 19, 2004, 8:18 PM Views: 1851 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? You are most welcome ... but seriously - all the words in the world ain't gonna make a jot of difference without an owner who is prepared to love and do what is necessary ... so, all credit goes to you and your puppies and no one else ... ... As for pats on the back ... OH NO ... never say things like that ... or you will "goat's mouth" the whole thing ... *shhhhsssssh* ... and then something sure go wrong one ... and then - we kena again ... *LOL*... Enjoy your success in the quiet companionable luxury of silence ... *grin*... and don't tempt the Gods ... Cheers

jaytan Canine Addict Mar 19, 2004, 9:18 PM Views: 1847 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? hi Surchinmy, The past week I have only had to soap and scrub, 3 times in 8 days, so I can afford to kena again, hahaha. Yesterday I had to spray and mop just for the accummulated hair and general grubbiness. What luxury, heheheh. In the early puppy days, we produced 1-2 huge garbage bags of soiled newspapers every day. Now the newspapers just go with the rubbish from the kitchen into one tidy garbage bin, emptied on alternate days. The garbage man wont even suspect we are paper training puppies, hahahha. I guess I am a serious dog owner. One who is prepared to rough it out in the initial months so that the remaining years can be enjoyed. But I am also very tough with my doggies. No junk food and no coddling bad behaviour. Sometimes my daughters think I am too hard. But I believe in tough love and Beagles do need to be handled very firmly. Thanks again and best regards,J

aragorn2976 Ultra ALPHA Mar 22, 2004, 6:04 PM Views: 1842 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Greetings... Sorry for the late reply... Isn't it strange that work and life is a symbiotic relationship? ... Without some work, there would be no life... Kekeke... Anyway, I hate it when work interrupts my leisure life... Wow... It really does work, huh? Hmmm.. I think I might give it a go. Was at the petstore yesterday picking up some food but forgot to look for the clicker!! Hmmmm.... Will look up clicker training websites later. However, the book that I got for teaching dog tricks did mention a bit on clicker training... Join the JRT Zone Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. - 1 John 4:7 (Oofy's motto)

jaytan Canine Addict Jun 16, 2004, 12:22 AM Views: 1736 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, I am reading this thread again cos it looks like I have to toilet train my 2 rascals all over again. The pooping indoors problem resurfaced when I tried to train the puppies in a new command, DOWN. Well, the last time I had problems with Picnic cos she was somewhat fixated on Sparky and I couldnt get her focus. I figured that was the tough part of having 2 doggies together instead of one. The good news is that she is fine now after her runaway adventures. But the problem has shifted to Sparky, who began to think he was the boss again with Picnic back and in turn started to have selective hearing. When I tried to tighten the basic SIT and COME and also introduce DOWN, Sparky was very resistant and even refused to respond. He had a lot of difficulty submitting to lie DOWN on command. His toilet training fell apart and he started to poop indoors at odd times. Maybe partly in defiance but I suspect also in response to the stress of the new command and tighter training. The doggies have shaped up on the commands including DOWN after 2 weeks. But it looks like I have to redo their toilet training. I have more choices now since they are older, 11 months now. Thinking of giving them one meal a day so now feeding 3/4 morning and 1/4 evening again. Considering water restriction at night. And will use the crate if there is little progress. Wish me luck. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Jun 16, 2004, 7:37 PM Views: 1733 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ya ... Yeah ... agree ... Probably good time to try going one meal a day ... And I don't think you will have much trouble re-establishing the poop routine ... Suspect you are right ... when dogs have been trained to poop outdoors ... their sudden decision to do business in-doors is often a sign of some protest or rebellion ... *laughs* ... Substitute for carrying a banner and marching down the High Street ... If you find Sparky rebelling against new commands ... maybe you can try the clicker method ... very fast ... very easy ... and will remove training rebellion because it's not even like training to the dog ... All the best ... Cheers

jaytan Canine Addict Jun 16, 2004, 10:09 PM Views: 1729 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? hi Surchinmy, nice to read your postings again. Yeah, this time around the problem is mainly behaviorial. The puppies are much older now and I can be confident that they are old enough to comfortably hold till walkies time. I hope you are right that it will be easier now. At the moment the results are still volatile - ok for 3 days then poop indoors twice a day then ok a day then not ok.... Sparky is ok with the new command now. Sometimes he rolls over in submission when asked to DOWN, so that gives me a clue how he perceives it. After a test of wills he has come to terms who the alpha is and it is not him, hehehe. I had to consistently correct him sternly when he ignored me. The last time you mentioned that the main meal in the morning would have gone through their digestive system by the evening. So far it seems like they poop the breakfast the next morning. Would it then be better to have the main meal in the evening so they dont have so much to poop in the morning where I am struggling at? Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Jun 17, 2004, 12:30 AM Views: 1724 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? ... It's once again mad work-wise ... so not much time to post ... " ... The last time you mentioned that the main meal in the morning would have gone through their digestive system by the evening. So far it seems like they poop the breakfast the next morning. Would it then be better to have the main meal in the evening so they dont have so much to poop in the morning where I am struggling at? ..." You can try evening feed ... But I would suspect - even if you fed in the evening ... the morning poop is still gonna be the main poop ... We have tried both morning and evening feeds ... but regardless, the dogs always seem to have poop for the morning ... like they store it or something ... Cheers ...

jaytan Canine Addict Jun 17, 2004, 6:18 AM Views: 1722 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? hi Surchinmy, thanks for replying despite being busy. I think I will try feeding a single meal in the evening. Nothing to lose in poop experiments, hahaha. Best regards,J

jaytan Canine Addict Jun 21, 2004, 10:25 PM Views: 1711 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi Surchinmy, glad to report success as you anticipated - 6 days without accident with most days like clockwork. I would consider the case closed, for now at least, hahaha. Main meal in the evening and water restriction at night, did the trick. I wonder whether there is going to be a pooping problem everytime I teach the doggies a new command. I think I need to strengthen their recall and at least progress to the STAY command. But, I have to admit that the battle of wills and indoor pooping protests, can be nerve wrecking. Anyway, I will enjoy the peace for a while before training further. Thanks for your ideas, feedback and support. Best regards,J

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Jun 22, 2004, 2:24 AM Views: 1705 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Good news ... glad all is back to normal again ... Somehow I don't think the disruption to the pee/poop routine is going to happen again when you teach your next new command ... I suspect, the situation was more an issue of getting the dogs "re-settled" with the return of the your Beagle ... If at all - (I suspect) the teaching of the new command was only a trigger that set of a chain of events and not the real cause ... Now that everything is "re-settled" and the doggies have identified their places again ... I would be most surprised if the pee/poop routine is disturbed when you start teaching/reinforcing recall or teaching stay ... Would be great if you keep me posted and see if my guess is correct ... Cheers

wong_fui Novice Jun 22, 2004, 2:55 AM Views: 1703 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? hello, I must give total admiration to jaytan for having two beagles.they are so adorable.Hows jaytan experience anyway in upkeeping them especially with their "destructive" behavior. My 'lola' is good so far.Occassional 'destructive' problem.Anymore two or even three beagle owner out there???Pls share....luv to hear frm you guys....... I live in KL bkt.bintang area,the most i can do taking lola for a walk around bkt.ceylon area which is nice and comfortable walk but is there any other park i could go??Seems that dog friendly place in kl is very very restricted.U guys agree????,especially open parks. I think people tend to forbids dog in a particular area purely because of wee wee and poo poo problem.What if they are well train or the owner is very responsible? And also with the contructions of excessive condominiums and apartments in KL against the no. of pet shops booming in kl,how long more will they forbids pets in these places?Any action frm MKA about this issue.....maybe to allow certain breeds?

a_evie Doggyman Jun 22, 2004, 10:17 AM Views: 1700 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? back to the topic of training 2 behaviors at once....how does it work that when shalom is caught red handed with someone's socks in her mouth...and at the command of sit and stay...the socks will drop and she turnms her head away albeit still in her sit and stay position. am worried that i am teaching her wrongly somewhere. a little update..she ahs been good so far..no poo nipping or eating. have changed her meal to a larger portion for breakfast and a mini one for dinner...and this is resulting is morning poos unless we give her fish..of which she eliminates almost within 10 minutes of the meal.

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Jun 22, 2004, 7:29 PM Views: 1697 Re: [a_evie] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Don't think its about training 2 behaviours at once in Shalom's case ... The important thing is to get her to understand is that biting socks is a No No! ... (A) Observe Shalom (you can actually lay down an old sock for this) ... and when Shalom heads for the sock ... just BEFORE she bites the sock ... You give a low and growly (as loud as necessary) NOOOOOOO!!!!! ... If you give the NOOOO correctly, Shalom should back off the sock ... Once she backs off the sock - you wait a moment ... then give her recall command ... when she comes to you ... you praise & treat ... (B) For the situation where Shalom already has sock or other forbidden object in mouth ... you GO to her ... and hold the object - and give the command LET GO ... Once she lets go of the object - praise & treat ... For this one, you have to make sure your command is obeyed, and the sock must be either released by Shalom or you must take it away from her - it can be a contest of wills. If Shalom does not let go with first command - then the next LET GO must be Low & Growly ... and if even that doesn't work, then open her mouth and take sock a way ... And then NO treat & NO praise ... ignore her for the next 15minutes, to show that you are not happy ... Cheers

a_evie Doggyman Jun 23, 2004, 7:06 PM Views: 1683 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? am actually using the 2 scenarios that you have given...only thing is that some days she gets so stubborn and would take something like 2 or 3 steps backwards before releasing the socks. but will run thru the old socks with her the next few days on a daily basis....then see how she goes. how's the new pups at the pj home?

jaytan Canine Addict Jun 25, 2004, 6:22 AM Views: 1665 Re: [wong_fui] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi, whatever made me think that 2 Beagles would be easier than 1, hahaha. Actually there are braver people on the forum, some with a dozen doggies, phew. Glad to hear that Lola has been good. You must spend lots of time with Lola since Beagles only turn destructive when left alone. At least that is the way with mine. They are angels in my company. Best regards,J

wong_fui Novice Jun 25, 2004, 8:57 AM Views: 915 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? DeaR JAYTAN, thx for replying.I recently noticed lola gets destructive when I did not bring her out for 2 days.so u r definately right!She became paper shredder again like she used to do.So must really speng more time with her la!! take care.

kitconnie78 ALPHA Jun 25, 2004, 4:11 PM Views: 914 Re: [wong_fui] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Spending more time will help. Is best also to let your dog out more than caging up the dog. This will change your dog become a nuisance. ~*~*~*~*~*~* |<('.'.)> | (._0) | ? , ":./ | ;];]c_) kitconnie78 is the owner of Bibi, Eden, Minmin (Silky Terrier), Momo (M. Schnaunzer) Gobi (pug) Magic (Border Collie) and Ariel

surchinmy Ultra ALPHA Jul 3, 2004, 2:08 AM Views: 900 Re: [a_evie] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Hi ... Sorry ... missed this ... We saw the puppies for the first time a few days ago ... they look healthy and strong ... so now its a question of timing their need for mother's milk (also to time with need to let mother use up her supply of milk) ... with need for socialisation ... and the basic fear period ... before we attempt to catch them and then try and find homes ... Keeping fingers crossed ... and hoping mother will not move the pups before we can get the pups ... Cheers

a_evie Doggyman Jul 7, 2004, 5:35 AM Views: 887 Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? okie. keep me posted. we may have room for another furkid in cheras.

jaytan Canine Addict Jul 8, 2004, 5:55 AM Views: 877 Re: [wong_fui] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? hi, dont take her out for 2 days? Wow, my rascals will stage a rebellion if they miss their twice daily walks. They will be so restless, agitated and trash around. Then poop all over to make a point they are not happy being made prisoners without exercise rights, sigh. Best regards,J

kitconnie78 ALPHA Jul 8, 2004, 4:55 PM Views: 867 Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? Letting your dog out for walk is important but you must also let your dog know that they cannot do what they want. ~*~*~*~*~*~* |<('.'.)> | (._0) | ? , ":./ | ;];]c_) kitconnie78 is the owner of Bibi, Eden, Minmin (Silky Terrier), Momo (M. Schnaunzer) Gobi (pug) Magic (Border Collie) and Ariel