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makrawl
Canine Addict

May 17, 2003, 9:18 AM

Post #1 of 57 (2978 views)
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well guys, i went to this latest gathering and met lots of ppl. then i met Ms. Lewis from US. my dog was barking mad at her dogs. so "spontaniously" i hit his mouth (gently, and i always do that) and commanded him to stop that. when Ms. Lewis saw what i did to my dogs, she advised me not to do so and still i remember the "key word"that she mentioned. she told me that "i won't hit someone's mouth if he said something that i don't like?" her statement was like a bell that hit right on my heart and i really feel there is a very big difference between the East and West ppl on the methods to train their dogs. and she was also felt very surprise that there are so many ppl hitting their dogs here (although we love them).

i grown up in a very typical chinese family and it is a very normal scene to see children being punished physically by cane or ear pinching (of course these are not those extreme cases that cause injuries). i, myself even got "beaten up" quite often as i was a naughty one. maybe this is a social "thing" that really growing deep into our society and it has becomes a norm. i was so surprised that Ms. Lewis is able to train her Poms so well without the "cane part". and i really wish to learn from ppl like her on how to train a dog with "cane free" on the behaviour part. (i only punish them when they did something wrong, punishment is never use during training )

so may i know that is there any information, sources, books or whatever that teach a dog owner to train their dogs in a "physical punishement free" way? or is there any trainer who is willing to share this "new" method (for me it is new) with us? or is there any course. but i think i really need some good books on that. i know that we can't do advertising here but i think this is very important to let us know which source is the best to make both the dog and the owner's life more easy and happy. actually i've tried some tricks that i've learned from the books some works but some are not. like the method that Ms. Lewis taught me on how to discourage my "sakai" dog from barking mad is never taught in my books. i'm very sure these comes from experience but i do need advise and books to lead me to the right path.

one more thing, i'm working daily and so i can't stay at home and teaching them all them time. i'm sure most of u is also working right? what i (we) need is a very effective and easy to pick up by the doggies command. so, can we do that without physicall punishment? (as i can't catch them right on time every time they do the wrong thing like miss place on the -poo poo, and pee pee, pull down the clothes that hang up to dry or swallow dirts from the garden, digging holes, chewing mats etc.) what can we do?

i'm looking out for a solution here. so, what do u think??

Mak

(This post was edited by makrawl on May 17, 2003, 9:28 AM)

cshellz
Ultra ALPHA

May 17, 2003, 5:55 PM

Post #2 of 57 (2966 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Mak,

I agree with you that in our country there are many ppl who resort to physical punishment when trying to train their dogs. I've seen ppl who kick their dogs when their dogs come running to them to play, ppl who hit their dog so hard that they cry, also ppl who use cane on their dogs.

But like you, i do believe that there's a different way to instill discipline. When I was studying in Aust, I always noticed that the ppl there talked to their dogs very politely and gently...and even talk to their kids like they were adults! No threats, no raising voices, no raising hands...(well I'm sure there are cases of it but I have not seen it in public before). And guess what? The dogs are very obedient!! In each supermarket you go to you'll see dogs sitting and waiting patiently for their owners outside of the supermarket. And they aren't even on the leash. You can go there and pat them or play with them but they will only move when their owner comes out! They are also everywhere in the sidewalk cafes...sitting obediently next to the owner's chair or on the owner's lap and not on leash too.

I think seeing them like that has taught me a thing or two. Although I don't hit my dog, I used to pat him lightly on hit bum and say "NO" whenever he does something wrong. But now I've learnt to 'talk' to my dog a bit more and instead of hitting him, I only give him a more stern warning and am using rolled newspaper to make noise on my hand or furniture to train him...esp when I see him biting stuff. But like u said, it would be really good if we could get more input about the 'no physical' way of punishing and disciplining a dog!

mackmack
Doggyman

May 18, 2003, 1:38 PM

Post #3 of 57 (2957 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Mak,

i gotto admit that ... once a while, I did "slap" on accidentally. But never meant to use the abusive way to "train" him. Maybe GR is a lot easier to train, the way i used was "educate" him all the time, i'll hav him sit infront of me, look at me, and listen to me. then i'll start my lesson such as :"cannot do this. it's not right. do no more in future, understand??" probably keep repeating until he gimme the look of "understood" then i will say "OK", and Mack would gimme his HANDS, one by one and i hav to hit them a bit. the whole "teaching" is like after lesson and punishment, then he would be "released". the funny thing was....if he's not the culprit or he thinks he did nothing wrong, ah-ah..... he won't follow all these steps mentioned above. even if he would sit down in front of me, he would refused to look at me, not to mention let me teach him a lesson! Crazy

Well...well...well....that's just indoor "manner's" lesson. Back to "normal" obedient training, I use the Gentle Leader Collar, some ppl call it head collar, etc. It works!! I rented the training video tape from the vet (when i was in michigan) and follow the instructions. Although my way wasn't professional enough, but still managed to train without physical punishment on . Also, heard that there's a so called training leash too.

Afterall, if ur dogs are human-oriented, most likely they are eaiser to handle and to train. coz they are SMART. Smile

--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--

KEIDOU
Member

May 19, 2003, 6:04 AM

Post #4 of 57 (2947 views)
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Re: [mackmack] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

HAI!

CAN GET THE gentle leader collar at many pet shop? do u heard of no-bark collar?i hope cant buy a suitable collar for my frijol,m.s.
Tongue

KEIDOU

ALWIZ BE NAUGHTY!
BE FUNNY
BE NAIVE

.'"'..
'
( '0' )_!)
' '
LL_ *_J

mackmack
Doggyman

May 19, 2003, 12:58 PM

Post #5 of 57 (2940 views)
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Re: [KEIDOU] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

KEIDOU

I'm now staying in US. The gentle leader collar and the "no-bark" collar could be found in most pet-stores here, at least from PetSmart and PetCo. Sharper Image also selling some great doggie's accessories but are more expensive.
Smile

--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--

TohCS
Enthusiast

May 19, 2003, 5:07 PM

Post #6 of 57 (2937 views)
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Re: [KEIDOU] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

I got my Gentle Leader from .................. (advertising contents deleted)

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by Admin on May 20, 2003, 7:24 AM)

doodle
ALPHA

May 19, 2003, 5:24 PM

Post #7 of 57 (2933 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi makrawl,
Sometimes when my dog misbehave, it really makes me feel so mad that I feel like throwing my tantrum on him. But it's not fair for him as he doesn't even understand what he has done wrong. As for he is still an infant that he even needs to learn to bark. (He still don't know how to bark)
Well, I have come across alot of books from Mid Valley MPH. One is quite good and it has alot of photos to show us how to do it. I think it is quite good and cost about RM80+ but I can't remember it's title. However, there's alot of book you can pick from.
My dog is basset hound and it is known for it's stubborness. It is really really stubborn but no doubt it is smart, it just refuse to listen to me. Everyone calls it a monster.
I really envy those dogs that could just understand what the owners want them to do. Like sitting outside the cafe and wait for them. The loyalty shown could bring tears to my eyes. I do respect the patience and love given by the owner to train the dogs to do that.
*salute

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 19, 2003, 8:00 PM

Post #8 of 57 (2925 views)
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Re: [mackmack] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

yeah, u've reminded me something. video tape is a very good learning material. but i wonder if is there any out there in Malaysia? does anyone know if there is any source/s?

actually i've spend hundreds on books and still i can't find the "best" so far as all are just telling the "common and overall the same" thing. books from west would say "don't hit the dog" while books from Japan say "hit the bum (not very hard, just enough to stop them) with hands when necessary". that's why i feel a bit lost as i don't know which to follow.

i'll go and search for more books later and see what can i get.

actually i was planning to bring them for training (MKA courses) but i can't tear my self away. i'm having my orchestra practice on the same day and the time of these two program just can't match up. Unsure

by the way, does this MKA at Tmn Tun has any "doggies library?"

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 19, 2003, 8:04 PM

Post #9 of 57 (2924 views)
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Re: [TohCS] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,

can u tell me more about this gentle leader? and how does it look like and how it works?

tq

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 19, 2003, 8:16 PM

Post #10 of 57 (2922 views)
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Re: [cshellz] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

yeah, i did talk to my dogs and something funny always happen. first, they'll be very very happy when i talk to them. second, they'll come over and lie on my foot or climb up. third, they'll jump up and down and do lots of silly act that really amuse me, forth (ocassionally), my mother heard that and she'll ask me " u "siau" already ah? talking to dogs?!" kakaka.

but talking wth them really helps.

TohCS
Enthusiast

May 19, 2003, 8:36 PM

Post #11 of 57 (2916 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

A GL (Gentle Leader) has two hoop ie the Nose and the Neck . It is nylon. It look almost like a horse harness (but it is nylon and soft) .
It works on the concept that wherever the nose goes the dog goes. When a dog tries to pull ahead it's nose and head will turn back to look at you, making it virtually impossible for the dog to pull. It works like a mother dog holding on a puppys muzzle . As for the neck strap pressure is put on the back of the dogs neck and not front (unlike traditional collars and thus prevents choking).
It is different from a Halti but more or less same concept. Some ppl prefer halti some prefer GL. To me I find GL less complicating cause only have 2 straps. After getting the GL even if there is a CAT or another DOG ahead your dog will not be able to pull you ahead with it . Walking with your dog will be a breeze. No Jerk will be needed at all.

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by Admin on May 20, 2003, 7:34 AM)

alywang
New User

May 19, 2003, 8:45 PM

Post #12 of 57 (2914 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

hey mak,

Kudos on being open-minded about not using physical punishment on your dog.

I used to have the same problem with my dog. But i guessed quite correctly that she was not used to being around other dogs and strangers. She got real nervous and fretful. I tried to bring her out more often and socialise. By and by, she got more confident, and was less threatened by the unfamiliar surroundings and scents. Especially if I constantly reasurre her by giving her a pat, whenever she looked she was fretting.

I found that giving treats was a more effective way of training than punishment. It need not be doggy tidbits, even a playful tug-of-war or giving the dog its favorite toy when it does something right, is good enough. When my pet does something wrong like chewing the furniture or missing its potty, i will shout "no", with a firm and stern voice. When it does remember to go to the toilet, i will praise her like "good girl" in a higher pitch tone, plus a ruffle on its head. Soon enough, she learnt that my pitch of voice indicates if i am pleased or displeased.

The main thing to remember is consistency in your training. You'll be surprised how quickly your dog can learn. It is also a good idea to start the training at the on-set. Cos, once the dog develops a habit of something, it may take longer to un-learn. If you do not have the time to train your dog, perhaps you can consider sending it to an obedient school. I'm sure there are such services in your neighbourhood?

aly

mackmack
Doggyman

May 19, 2003, 9:13 PM

Post #13 of 57 (2911 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

PetSmart.com

Gentle Leader Training Collar by Premier Pet
The Gentle Leader Headcollar works by putting light pressure on your dog's muzzle and at the back of the neck; replicating the way a "pack leader" gently yet firmly grasps a subordinate's muzzle in his mouth. This sends a clear signal to the dog that YOU are the leader. Along with using positive reinforcement and small food rewards, many dog lovers find they're able to significantly alter their dog's undesirable behavior in a very short time. The Gentle Leader can help you teach your dog to sit, as well as prevent jumping and lunging or tugging during walks.
Because the Gentle Leader is different from any other training collars you may have previously used, it's important to read and follow the complete instructions that are included.

http://www.petsmart.com/.../product_17756.shtml

--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--

snoopydog
Enthusiast

May 20, 2003, 12:40 AM

Post #14 of 57 (2901 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi makrawl,

Recently, I read a book called "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller which talks about using Positive Reinforcement to train your dog. The author owns a dog that excelled in obedience and won many titles. She said something in her book which made so much sense to me. Having subjected her dog to physical punishment for some years, one day, her dog just refused to train and went into hiding everytime she took out the training equipment. Any owner would be heart-broken to see that, right? Unsure

So, she realised that the years of physical punishment had taken a toll on her dogs and she felt that she had betrayed her dogs. The author finally realised that it was not worth breaking the trust between her and her beloved dog, over a few ribbons and medals. From then on, she adopted the positive training method which did not involve any pain or physical punishment. It's also relatively stress free for both dogs and owner. No need to yell, no need to scream. In fact, MKA gave a short introduction on this same topic last Saturday, which was very, very enlightening Smile

.

So, you may want to read the book I mentioned. I bought mine from MPH.

Good luck Smile

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 20, 2003, 1:48 AM

Post #15 of 57 (2894 views)
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Re: [all] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

thanks. it was a very very clear info from u all. i'll look for the shop and get the leash ASAP.

thanks u guys are so nice. Angelic

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 20, 2003, 1:50 AM

Post #16 of 57 (2893 views)
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Re: [snoopydog] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

wow. that should be a great book that all i need. by the way, is the book only telling the "story" that u've mention or it is a book to train dogs? which MPH? midvalley?

TohCS
Enthusiast

May 20, 2003, 6:46 AM

Post #17 of 57 (2890 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is a book that covers the principal of positive training and also lots and lots of training tips on how to train your dog in various areas such as obedience and tricks . A great book. Kinokuniya also have stock of that book.

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 20, 2003, 5:16 PM

Post #18 of 57 (2874 views)
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Re: [TohCS] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

oh. i see. ok then, i'll search for it within this month. tq very much.

talking about this training, i still remember that when i was young, i met a fella that train his dog using a cane?! i was very shocked as when he was teaching the dog on how to shake hands, the fella will use a cane and hit the front paws till the dog couldn't stand it and lift the paw up. and he never lift up the the dog's paw before and the dog never know what is "shake hands". sigh... what a "tragic scene". and it was a pure breed too(he bought for about rm1000). how could they do it.

mackmack
Doggyman

May 20, 2003, 6:40 PM

Post #19 of 57 (2868 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

regarding books of training,
I would suggest u to go with those books for particular breed. for myself, i bought the book that show how to train a golden retriever, and when i read about training for other types of breed, i found that the approaches are different when dealing with different temperament of breeds. they might not be a huge variation, but somehow.... we need to pay more attention to certain extend.
Smile

--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 21, 2003, 12:09 AM

Post #20 of 57 (2855 views)
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Re: [mackmack] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

actually i bought a book that only talks about English cocker spaniel and it gives me some usefull information on the dogs but training was not mention in the book. i can only find books of training for "all" but non as what u've mentioned. maybe i'll go and look for it again.

mackmack
Doggyman

May 21, 2003, 12:13 AM

Post #21 of 57 (2854 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Why not search for the materials from online bookstore?
how about barnes and noble? amazon.com?

--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--

TohCS
Enthusiast

May 22, 2003, 8:34 PM

Post #22 of 57 (2826 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Go over to MPH, Megamall. I saw lots of training books for various breeds. Not sure if there is one for Eng Cocker . Pat Miller's book is also found there :-) . Good luck!

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 25, 2003, 9:11 AM

Post #23 of 57 (2804 views)
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Re: [TohCS] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

i found a book at MPH shah alam. it is quite informative and i'm still reading it.

by the way, i've bought 2 gentle leaders from the store that u've mention. the owner was very curious about how i got to know this product (i think it is still new here?!) coz when i went in to the store, i go straight for the things. i told him that i was recomended by a friend from the net and he was very impressed on that. i think u can go and ask the owner to give u a free meal! Laugh

of course, my two little fella are not happy about it at all. they keep on pushing the things off but they are just making themsleves tired only . Wink

i've tried it out while puting them on the leash. the effect was great. no jerking nor hard pulling. when they pull, they just turn back to me and i didn't even use any "super power" like last time. of course again, they give me a very very frust look. Sly

well, i'm the winner this time huh?! kekeke.

thanks a lot, u r so great.

(This post was edited by makrawl on May 25, 2003, 9:18 AM)

TohCS
Enthusiast

May 26, 2003, 3:50 AM

Post #24 of 57 (2796 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Mackrawl,

It will take a little while before the dogs adjust to the GL. Just remember don't jerk on the leash when using the GL.
Hee hee I doubt the shop guy knows who I am. I only when there twice so far . Some people even think I am advertising for the shop when I mention this place. Laugh

.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Irrespective whether you been there once or never, advertising contents is advertising contents and will be deleted. Posting of Petshop Name and address is not appropriate as it is considered as advertising for them. Please learn to respect the terms of this forum.

- Admin

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway I am glad you find the GL helpfull. Wink

Many doggie cheers,

Cheng See
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GIVE A DOG A HOME TODAY
Love all dogs pure or non pure breed - give them hope!
CALL PAWS 03-78461087 to take a dog home.
SPCA - 03-42535179 to give a dog a chance in life.
====================================
My fur kids....
Coco-Mongrel adopted from PAWs
Kiddo-Mongrel a stray that adopted us
Belle-Beagle -the naughty one :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by Admin on May 28, 2003, 7:09 AM)

bomberZ
Member

May 28, 2003, 3:51 AM

Post #25 of 57 (2773 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi makrawl,

can u please email me the store name and location where i can get the gentle-leader leash.

u can email me at

thanks a lot

makrawl
Canine Addict

May 28, 2003, 5:46 PM

Post #26 of 57 (2028 views)
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Re: [TohCS] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

aiya. i'm so sorry to cause u trouble and make u "kena marah" by admin. sorry friend. hope u don't mind.

after reading the book, i realised that almost all the methods that i've been using was not very good. and now i have to start alll over again and it is just so tired for me. from housebreaking till tricks. all have to be adjusted again. but one of my dog is now almost 2 years old. i wonder if he can accept the change? Crazy

for now, we r going back to the start and working really hard on that. phew...... hopefully u'll get my good news soon, hopefully.

eileen
Novice

Jun 22, 2003, 9:46 AM

Post #27 of 57 (2003 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi! I'm a new member, and I just read about your posting today. cshellz was absolutely right, westerner teach the dogs with love, most asians teach the dogs with canes. If we try to teach a dog by physical punishment, the only thing that the dog will learn is FEAR. I can imagine Mrs. Lewis's reaction and thoughts when she see dogs being slap or whack, because same thing had happened to me as well.

My mom never whack my dogs, she only raised her voice to scold them (it's not that she is a professional, it's simply that she is just too kind and loves them too much, i mean to the extend that sometimes I tak boleh tahan. ha!), on the other hand, my uncle keeps the dogs in the cage and never talk and train the dogs, and his children who knows nothing will kick the dogs when they misbehave. Therefore the dogs do not know what is right or wrong because the only teaching they receive is punishment. RESULT: My mom's dog is more docile and tame than my uncle's psycho dogs. I believe dogs with fear are emotionally imbalance and pyscho. Frown

After seeing many cases and readings i strongly believe that the dog is your reflection. we give them love, they'd show us love. we teach them violence, they'll show us violence. Do you think so?? Smile

Regards,
Eileen

makrawl
Canine Addict

Jun 24, 2003, 2:52 AM

Post #28 of 57 (1990 views)
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Re: [eileen] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

first of all, welcome and feel free to disscuss anything.

yeah, u r right. dogs will react based on the "input" from us. one more thing. different dog will have different characters and we have to use different way to teach them. some ppl had a great dog and when the next dog which is not as good as the last one (or shall i say different?) comes into their hand, they still teach them using the same method and when the dog doesn't gives the result as what the last dog did, the owner will assume that this dog is "pariah". think about it as even children also having different kind of characters and the learning process also varies. somemore they r teaching a dog??

well, my dogs now is progressing really slow but at least they r reaching somewhere?! Cool

doodle
ALPHA

Jun 26, 2003, 12:52 AM

Post #29 of 57 (1979 views)
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Re: [makrawl] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

All in all,
Shall we hit our dogs when they misbehave?
Everyone I know seems to go for it. My boyfriend kept saying that I am pampering my dog too much. I refuse to hit my basset hound though it is a very stubborn dog. But sometimes when he misbehave and I just have to say NO! and he will stop and look at me.
From the pet shop owner to doodle's vet say that I should start hitting him. Has anyone here have never hit their dog and still able to train them well?

Augustmoon
Dog Kichi

Jun 26, 2003, 7:07 AM

Post #30 of 57 (1977 views)
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Re: [doodle] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello doodle,

Nice meeting you again Smile

i still believe in positive training without using physical punishments. Both the above training works but...but... by hitting you will lost the bond and trust. Few year back I've a neighbour who always hit his dog with stick, reason was every morning she read and destroy the newspaper before the owner does. Its has been continue for weeks until the dog give up and be obedient, but the bond between them have draft apart, whenever the dog saw the owner she will run and hide. Positive training takes longer time and the correct voice command used are very important. Always take notes of the invisible training, it can be from ourself and family members. As you have mension that your furkid can understand "NO" its good. But what others command does she know, because we cannot use "NO" for everythink, have you try using "OFF" or "LEAVE IT" its a very good command for destructive dog.

Regards

Augustmoon & Win

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jun 26, 2003, 8:15 AM

Post #31 of 57 (1975 views)
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Re: [doodle] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well, I don't if I should be ashamed but yeah, I did hit my dog but before you call SPCA or anything like that,Let me explain my methods of training. Unsure

For me,dogs can learn any command,provided you have patience. They have to learn words relating to something. For example, "get keys" to a human is just get keys. To a dog it may mean "get that horrible tasting hard thing that makes a funny sound when its in my mouth". "Toy" would mean something like "the thing I like to bite and play with when my owner is not around." The reason I hit my dog(not too hard) was so that she knows that NO meant something *bad*. Bad here could be a spray of water, a scent that your dog doesn;t like etc.

For me I would hit her cause it was convenient.Whenever I see her do something she's not suppose to I don't have to run and get the water spray.I can punish her immediately when she has just 'commited' the 'crime' so that it is fresh in her memory what she has just done. For example,if I did run to get the spray and came back to spray her,she's chewing her toy. If I sprayed the water at her now,she'll think "If I chew this nice thing my master gave me to bite,I'll get sprayed. Next time,I better not chew it so I don't get sprayed on"

I only went through that for about 2 weeks when she was a pup. Now she's VERY obedient.Once I say NO she'll stop whatever she's doing. So the message I was sending to my dog was "When my mistress says a deep sounding word 'no',I must stop whatever I'm doing. If I don't I'll get a smack on my bum". Blush

I think a little too 'cheong hey' already.. Unsure

.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jun 26, 2003, 8:21 AM

Post #32 of 57 (1973 views)
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And about bond and trust...my dog absolutely trusts me..she's never distant and very manja. Halfway doing homework,she'll comeover,jump on the chair next to me and then sleep on my lap. Right now, she's using my foot as a pillow. My dogs seem to like my foot as a pillow.. Wink

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

doodle
ALPHA

Jun 26, 2003, 5:46 PM

Post #33 of 57 (1968 views)
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Hello again,
My doodle is still very mischievious and I have to wait for the right moment to input this order to him. He likes biting my socks and run away with it when I give a chase. What I will do is say "NO!" and then go closer to him and say 'LET GO' Then say snacks snacks. He will drop it and come to me. I think from there he knows that by dropping it, he will get snacks. He is doing quite good now. I think this is better without even having to hit him. Whenever he disobey me, I will try to buy him with carrots. It really takes alot of time and patient. I think by hitting them, it's a short cut.
Try to put positive thoughts into him. Praise him more than telling him not to do anything at all. Like when he sit still and keep quiet, praise him like good boy. Whenever he is doing the right thing that you wanted, praise him immediately.
I am sure human are like that too. As for my boyfriend, he hardly praise doodle and always scolding him when he does wrong thing. Whenever we let doodle out, doodle will run to me instead of him and obey me. Therefore, it's the respect we gave to him that he will return.
Enough said. Wink

doodle
ALPHA

Jun 26, 2003, 5:57 PM

Post #34 of 57 (1967 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] physical punishments [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi RealityDreamer,
I don't blame you for hitting your dog. I used to do that too cause I was told it is the right thing to do. But also have to hit at the right place where he can tolerate it. Usual spot is the backside.
I have a Shar Pei which we hit him when he disobey. Being a strong dog, it did him quite well. What I think here is that perhaps both ways might work but surely without hitting him is better. My shar pei respect me and look at me in fear. The best part is they always forgive us even when we hit them and comes back to get more love. Then again, I feel most of the time when we hit them, they really don't know what they did wrong to deserve those hitting. Really, they didn't know.
Maybe we should try to make them understand that it will annoy us tremendously if they do something wrong instead of hitting them. Same goes for our children. They won't do it because they understand. Not because they are afraid of being hit.

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jun 27, 2003, 4:05 AM

Post #35 of 57 (1961 views)
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The thing is..I kind of think that positive training is a little like spoiling the dog.(no offence)

For example, if the dog decides he wants a treat, he'll misbehave to get your attention.Once he achieves that,he'll know what to do to get the treat. Be a good boy and behave.

Of course he knows what he did was wrong but for a treat's sake,he'll 'pretend' to misbehave and then behave .

No offence but this is just my opinion,that's all Wink

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

doodle
ALPHA

Jun 27, 2003, 5:34 PM

Post #36 of 57 (1953 views)
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yeah, what u said also make sense which I am quite afraid it might happen to doodle.
That's why, I am not too sure to hit or not to hit. But everyone seems to encourage it. Even the vet!
Sigh...

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jun 27, 2003, 9:52 PM

Post #37 of 57 (1946 views)
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I guess its really up to you..good luck in choosing Smile

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

Augustmoon
Dog Kichi

Jun 28, 2003, 6:53 AM

Post #38 of 57 (1941 views)
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Hello,

Be patience she still a puppy, all puppies like to bite on things it fun for them. If she bite on something and u give chase it will be more fun running around. Puppy at this stage has new set of teeth and chewing just come naturally. Put things in higher ground and provide toy for her to chew. By hitting is not the solution, as after hitting she will be back doing the same old thing again. That means u have to hit her couples of time before she understood so what is the different using positive training if the right method are used. I'm not a k.9 trainer but positive training works as my min pin of 11 weeks understood my voice command not 100% as she still a puppy. She has got very good table manner, will not touch the food until I say O.K. all just a simple command. All dog have different characters as owner u know best. Also I've never say that by tapping our furkid backside will lost trust. What I'm trying to tell is my former neighbour who used the stick to whack his dog. Tapping the back will not kill but stick can if its lend on the wrong place especially the nose. Sorry for my poor english.

Regards.

Augustmoon & Win

makrawl
Canine Addict

Jun 28, 2003, 10:49 AM

Post #39 of 57 (1938 views)
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yeah. one thing i would say, if u really cannot avoid to punish your dog physically, please please please, hit only with your hands on their bums. hard enough to stop but gentle enough that it will not injure the dog. i'm trying hard to stop but sometimes i still "accidentally" hit him when he doesn't listen to me and lost control.

doodle
ALPHA

Jun 30, 2003, 5:22 PM

Post #40 of 57 (1924 views)
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Hi Augustmoon,
Thanks for the feedback!
I am still not hitting doodle but he really enjoys chasing my pant's sleeve. He will go beserk when he sees a mop. Dogs really have a thing for mop.
I will give his leash a jerk and he will stop. So far so good.
Makrawl,
I learned from my pet shop owner to use newspaper instead of hand cause sometimes our hand can be 'rough' (that's how he puts it) and we might injure our dog. Newspaper louder and bigger. They will get scared.
Sly

makrawl
Canine Addict

Jul 1, 2003, 2:21 AM

Post #41 of 57 (1916 views)
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oh?! i never come across in my mind with newspaper. Hmm... this gives me a better idea. the loud noise will enough to scare his crap out! kekeke

doodle
ALPHA

Jul 1, 2003, 8:05 PM

Post #42 of 57 (1911 views)
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Thus it is bigger and all u have to do is just raise it high above their head. They will bow their head and put their tail underneath.
Experience from my dogs last time.
Sometimes when doodle misbehave, i will hit the floor when he disobey my NO.
He will stop and look at me.

sweeeng
ALPHA

Jul 1, 2003, 9:58 PM

Post #43 of 57 (1906 views)
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Hi ...

I think the reason not to use bare hands is b'cos the dog will get scare of you. Maybe they'll think that if they go near your hand, you'll beat them. Don't they won't want to go near you the next time.

I heard too regarding the newspaper. I did try on my Maltese.... then went I train her to urine on the papers, she'll bite the paper into pieces instead. so now I just softly beat her with my hands, lor ... So that she won't get too scare.

Regards,
Swee Eng

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jul 1, 2003, 10:22 PM

Post #44 of 57 (1904 views)
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But then,say a robber came in and then he used a stick/weapon that looks like a piece of rolled up newspaper (medium length and thick), wouldn't the dog be afraid??

Instead of barking,he'll be submissive??
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

doodle
ALPHA

Jul 2, 2003, 1:38 AM

Post #45 of 57 (1900 views)
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Hmm... that's a good one.
But even when doodle disagree with me like when I am holding his leash, he will bite my hand too. Will he try to bite if I were to hit him?

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jul 2, 2003, 7:02 AM

Post #46 of 57 (1890 views)
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Don't know bout that..but last sunday i went to padang merbuk and one of the dogs bit his owner. The trainer told him to 'slap' the dog. It wasn't too hard. Then, the dog didn't bite back..

If you're dog sees you as his 'alpha' dog,he shouldn't bite. And if you were to hit him...he shouldn't bite back. If he did, he wants to challenge your dominance...which is not good....
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

Augustmoon
Dog Kichi

Jul 2, 2003, 9:30 AM

Post #47 of 57 (1884 views)
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I am still not hitting doodle but he really enjoys chasing my pant's sleeve. He will go beserk when he sees a mop. Dogs really have a thing for mop.
Hello,

Its normal, all puppies are the same as what u mention above. Its a good sign, its show that close relationship between u and ur furkid, a scared puppy will never do that. My min pin is no different if she get out of hand I will tell she off. As we are working ppl our furkid miss us, the moment there see us back there will go crazy..... As for using newspaper as part of the training, Well I have been doing it for quite sometime and its effective. But I do not use to hit my furkid I just used it to created some noise to scared her off. As min pin are hyperactive, I do not have the energy to follow her every move. I will roll up 2 newspaper one keep in the hall and the other in the kitchen. Whenever she try to be naughty I will used my command, if its not follow than I will used the paper to create some noise, it must be fast. Command follow by bang.

Regards.

Augustmoon & Win

doodle
ALPHA

Jul 2, 2003, 6:03 PM

Post #48 of 57 (1879 views)
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When doodle knows how to behave, he can behave well. Like when he knows it is pee time, he will quietly follow me. But when comes to playing time, the horn and tail will emerge. Like hantu. Play until growl and jump up and down.
Sometimes he might think when training time is playing time.

makrawl
Canine Addict

Jul 2, 2003, 7:40 PM

Post #49 of 57 (1877 views)
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that depends on the dog's character. my dogs tend to "bite" when they r over excited while playing with me. i just stand up and move away whenever they do that. they have reduce this "biting" habits as they realise everytime they bite my hands, i'll stop playing and move away.

but my cousin's dog has different story. u praise, u play r u touch him, he'll sure bite your fingers! even when they slap his mouth, he bite the hands too! not gentle bite but grab, bite, and pull gosh........ it was really painfull.

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jul 3, 2003, 7:32 AM

Post #50 of 57 (1874 views)
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guess your cousin's dog is really hyperactive Smile

hmm...have you tried 'crying' whenever your doggie bites your hand? like 'cry' when a pup is in pain? or say 'oooowww! oouucchh!" as if you are really in pain?

Try that Tongue

most of the time,the pups would naturally stop.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

hui__lim
Novice

Jul 3, 2003, 9:20 AM

Post #51 of 57 (1182 views)
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In Reply To

I will give his leash a jerk and he will stop. So far so good.

Is this ok giving the leash a jerk when he does something naughty? I perform this and my rottie responds well. It seems to learn that, if it doesn't sit, it will get a sharp tug on the neck. Of course if it does sit, i will hug it etc.

makrawl
Canine Addict

Jul 3, 2003, 8:48 PM

Post #52 of 57 (1174 views)
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i don't think it will work for my doggies. these fellas will only think u r happy and bite u more if u make lots of "funny" sound when they do it. better say NO to them than others, in my case. anyway, thanks

Augustmoon
Dog Kichi

Jul 4, 2003, 5:51 AM

Post #53 of 57 (1167 views)
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Sometimes he might think when training time is playing time.
doodle the bassie

Hello,

Ur doing very well. As least ur puppy understand what u want. Just k.por, hope u dont mind. Is doodle ur first puppy that u have train? Concerning ur previous post. Training time and play time, is just vice versa for puppy training, if it an adult dog than it different. For puppy we cannot be to strict and demanding, I train my furkid during play time and both of us enjoy it, most important she is learning and understand new command day by day. Hope we can share our training experience.

Regards

Augustmoon & Win

doodle
ALPHA

Jul 4, 2003, 9:16 PM

Post #54 of 57 (1160 views)
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doodle is my first pedigree dog and the most recent. I did quite alot of reading ever since having him.
When it is training time, i will provide food and it's at the same spot. When it is walking time, I allow him to sniff around and jump around.
Cause when he is busy sniffing, no way i can change his mind. He is getting stronger!

Augustmoon
Dog Kichi

Jul 5, 2003, 7:34 AM

Post #55 of 57 (1155 views)
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hello,

As a first timer u are doing very well Wink

Regards

Augustmoon & Win

doodle
ALPHA

Jul 7, 2003, 2:46 AM

Post #56 of 57 (1148 views)
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Hmmm, probably because of the amount of questions I ask my pet shop owner. And also thanks for puppy . I really learned alot and hear alot of experiences!

Frostie
New User

Jul 30, 2003, 11:46 PM

Post #57 of 57 (1129 views)
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Hi Cheng See,
Am looking for the Gentle Leader in Klang Valley. Saw some posting indicating you know where to get them. Can you send me an email of the address of the pet store?

dream8chaser@yahoo.com