Home


  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
FAQ FAQ & HELP FAQ PHOTO GALLERY Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

Home: Breed Specific: Gundog Group:
"Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!"





First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 23, 2004, 2:40 AM

Post #51 of 161 (3779 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RealityDreamer] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's BlushI do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed.

Hi there. I didn't find you rude or your tone unfriendly! Great to know that this thread has brought up some interesting discussion.



Just wondering...say (for example) the german shepherd was developed in so many different countries ie. czech,slovakia & UK n they have their own "types" where they are physically different (not just show and working,i mean like the working line czech,slovak & german dogs look different physically) .The germans (though the breed has been developed there as well) think that the czech dogs are ugly(not all,but u get my drift) & The slovaks may think the german GSD is not that attractive. I highly doubt the czechs would want to include a german GSD into their breeding programme and vice versa. so u said, "I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to" Is this just your personal preference? Because i think the germans would never see themselves getting a dachshund from the UK because of the different "type" it has developed into in the UK. Also is there an official statement saying that country x is the country of origin and country y is country of developement or is this something "everyone knows" when you get into the breed?


Yes it is well known fact in breed standards that they state country of origin and country of development. Like i mentioned before many countries have taken on certain breeds and developed them in different fashions. That is why an English bred dach may not do so well under the FCI countries bec their standard is different. You must bare in mind that there are several ruling bodies who have differing breed standards - KC (UK), ANKC, FCI, AKU & AKC. These are the main players but there are smaller bodies but these lot have their own set of standards. By and large KC, ANKC & AKC seem to be more compatible. FCI is a whole different ball game. Thus you will get funny looking GSD in different countries. You will also get bastardisation (evolution) of breeds - Belgian Shepherd, etc. where whole new breeds are developed from existing breeds.




As you say instincts which sets different breeds apart are impossible to breed out of them,how is it that there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat. Although i agree with you,that these days there is not much of a need for a dog to be used for its original purpose(in this case,defending & protecting),but isn't the insticnt of a rott to protect and defend? and isn't it impossible to breed instincts out of a breed? At the moment the only thing i can think of is that like all the other breeds,the requirements(solid nerves,prey drive,civility,etc) for this kind of work has been bred out of them as there is no need for them any more.And this has negated the "instinct" as for a dog to defend and protect he needs solid nerves,defence drive,fight drive etc. With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad,that this "instinct" of the rotts has dissapeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait?



All dogs have basic instincts (not the Sharon Stone movie) and some breeds have certain traits. Traits to me tend to be more physical in nature and instincts inborn. What you're talking about is temperament and that can affect instinct. If a dog is beaten and kicked around all its life it will fear humans so even if it is a 100kg Rotty it will run away from people. Bec behavioural conditions have affected its natural instincts!! Temperament is affected by conditioning and remember that only 30-40% is inherited the rest is environmental. I can give you two of my dachs and if you breed them without conditioning the pups to the social and neurological stimulus that i give them, they will with time go back to the aloof characters they are meant to be. They can even go back further to their natural canine instincts and be aggressive if provoked. I mean i am generalising as if you've been breeding for good temperaments for a while a certain protion of the pups will still have good outgoing natures whilst the others can revert back. That is why breeding good pups also requires a lot of work on the breeders part to ensure healthy (mentally and physically) welll adjusted pups. You can totally affect the temperament and hence in par the instinct of your dog by the way you bring it up. Therefore if that Rott was trained for aggression it could well do it's job and go after a burglar, in the same way i can train a Chihuahua to be a guard dog!!!! No jokes! As your tag line says - no such thing as bad dog just bad owners!



Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog,why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems? Crazy


I sincerely hope you're not one of those PETA or Animal Lib mob that i detest with a passion as they have started with the tail docking issue and next on the agenda is to disallow the breeding of such dogs which were engineered by man for whatever specific purposes they were bred for. They are a dangerous mob as eventually they want to outlaw dog ownership as they feel dogs shouldn't be owned but be free to roam around. I STRONGLY oppose that group.

Ok if you'e not one of them then beware of such people as they can easily brain wash people into thinking we are cruel to own such dogs. Firstly with the GSD - it is not meant to run for miles. It's not a distance endurance dog like a Border Collie but a Guard dog. Hence that back WILL NOT affect its ability to run. Look at a Greyhound or Borzoi, they have similar toplines and they can outrun any breed. Bulldogs were also bred for a specific purpose which required a strong jaw to be able to grab on and not let go, yet the ability to breath whilst doing so. So dogs were created for fashion - i will not pretend that everyone was bred for a specific purpose but these tend to be the companion dogs (Toys).


I think this can be somewhat compared to humans but humans have media influence as well as the subconcious fertility aspect.... but for dogs...? Aren't we the ones who are playing god with how they end up?


Extremity of any form will cause problems and yes man did play God for a while i will not deny that. But if we started to police what breeds could or couldn't be bred due to health reasons - and health is very general ok some will use the most ridiculous excuses and say it is a health problem, then about 50 breeds will eventually be outlawed. Including many of your so called well loved breeds. I will post the list of those breeds in the next few days. With some yes you think they are real health issues to be addressed, but with others they have just gone too far with these Animal rights argument. Remember one fact that the majority of breeds were developed by man and not God so if we let the Animal Libbers have their way, MANY much loved breeds would disappear.

What they fail to understand is that with modern technology and DNA we can breed out and remove MANY of these health issues but then they'd have nothing to protest about right? So they continue beating their drums. Guys we need to band together and be educated about the real issues!



Again I apologize if my tone is rude and/or disrespectful. I do not meant to sound that way. All views (including improvements on how i can sound friendlier) are welcomed.Smile

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 23, 2004, 5:22 AM

Post #52 of 161 (3762 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

P.s. you owe me RM1,000. It's fifty cents per letter lah for my advice!! LOL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ShockedWow so xpensive ah??? Anyway I kinda know oredi but just wan to hear your wise explaination and experience in good loontoon trained Ingelish......(include those by Alpha Loya-Surchin - HI HISmile) Anyway coming back to "Type" and "Soundness". I would think that breeding for "Soundness" should take precedence over others factors. In my opinion your "type" would come about eventually after generations of line and inbreeding..........but then who am ICrazy Again a short one from me..........u guys really can write. Good discussion Cheers


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 23, 2004, 8:14 AM

Post #53 of 161 (3747 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello, Smile

Thanks for taking the time to reply and no,I am not one of those PETA or Animal Lib mob.I do support tail docking and ear cropping as long as it is done humanely (by a vet)

But I am still a little confused about the defiition of instinct.Crazy

First it was said that instincts differentiate one breed from another breed (which is impossible to breed out). Then came "all dogs have the same basic instincts.(ie. survival instinct?)" Also,instincts are inborn.ok. i got that.

"My dogs will not attack other dogs and are sociable to other dogs and humans, but if a rat runs past or cicak or bird flies to low they will kill it. Instinct is impossible to breed out of them. And its their instinct that sets them apart from the next breed of dog. My English setter was never trained to set, but watch him in the garden and he will set the birds for you as his ancestors many many moons ago did for huntsmen."

Isnt the link between one of ur dachshunds killing rats and your setter setting birds the same type of link between the rott and his "temperament" to protect and defend?Crazy

"Temperament is affected by conditioning and remember that only 30-40% is inherited the rest is environmental." and temperaments affect instincts. But how can something that is 60-70% affected by the environment (the temperament) affect the instinct which is already inborn in the dog?

Firstly with the GSD - it is not meant to run for miles. German Shepherd Dog. Wasn't it a multi purpose dog? being able to herd as well? Crazy therefore needing the ability to run over miles of farmland..?

Help..? Crazy

Thanks in advance Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



(This post was edited by RealityDreamer on Oct 23, 2004, 8:18 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 23, 2004, 9:04 AM

Post #54 of 161 (3743 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RealityDreamer, boon, LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ya you ...

" ... Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's BlushI do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed ..."

Ahyoooh ... all this deference is surely not meant for me ... you have never been afraid of me ... Tongue ...

So, it must be LCK you are worried about ... *LOL* LaughShocked ... But don worry lar ... LCK is a cuddly teddy bear ... velly nice fella - so don be scared of him ... Just imagine a big black coated Pyrenees with the temperament of a puppy Retriever - that be him! ...

Question: " ... Also is there an official statement saying that country x is the country of origin and country y is country of developement or is this something "everyone knows" when you get into the breed? ..."

I will answer your question from a slightly different perspective, than that posted by LCK.

Dog breeding is in a constant state of flux, with changes going on all the time ... some of it good, some not so good. With some older breeds, there is little dispute over the country of origin or the country of development ... but I would not be surprised if even that changes as time passes.

Take the Akita for example ... country of origin is Japan ... but country of development? It depends on what kind of Akita you are looking at.

You will find a distinct and different Akita in USA from the one in Japan ... Visit these sites to see the differences:

www.akita.com/prosplit/katie.htm

www.americanakitas.com/split_information.htm

In FCI countries, the US Akita is now known as the Great Japanese Dog ...

As more and more people from all over the world start expressing their individual/cultural/regional interpretation of the various Breed Standards ... the distinction between country of origin and country of development - is probably going to get blurred as time goes on.

And sometimes there is a deliberate departure from a known breed. For example: The Shiloh Shepherd is obviously based on the GSD, and save for the initial start point where Malamutes were out-crossed into the breed ... it remains predominantly a GSD based dog. But is it still a GSD? ... Or is it a new breed with a completely new country of origin?


Taking your GSD example ... Yes! since the time of Max von Stephanitz ... the GSD has evolved ... and today, show GSDs are different from working GSDs ... GSDs in USA are different from European GSDs ... and so on ... All this is simply a reflection of the changes in the reasons why people breed GSDs today ... As those purposes change, evolve and get modified, the breeds (including traits, temperament & conformation) also change, evolve and get modified ...

Whether the changes are for better or worse ... that is another question and one of great debate ... But that changes have taken place remains a fact ...

Question: " ... there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat ... With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad, that this "instinct" of the rotts has dissapeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait? ..."

As for "instincts" ... dogs are from family canidae ... and as such, they all share common & similar basic instincts ... the instinct for survival, instinct for reproduction, instinct for guarding of territory & food ... instinct for self preservation & defence ... etc.

What Man has done is to bred selectively (for hundreds of years) emphasising and promoting certain & selected desired instincts in certain breeds ... for particular purposes ...

Because of this selective and specialised breeding ... each breed evolved its own specific, dinstinct & heightened "instincts" ... Hence, the guarding instinct in a Dober is stronger than that of a Labrador ... the scenting instinct in a Beagle is stronger than that in a Saluki ... etc ...

And such distinct & heightened instincts have to be maintained through continual selective breeding ... otherwise nature & evolution demands that they moves back to a median ...

But as times change ... as mentioned above ... the purpose for breeding dogs have also changed ... and with change in purpose - emphasis on the type of instinct to be bred and maintained in a breed has also changed ... and because of that ... you will find that the original basic instincts originally bred & promoted into certain breeds may not be as desired today as they were then ... And because of that, some of the original instincts & traits have or are being slowly bred out (sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentially) of the breeds ...


All this is all just a reflection of the times ... and what dogs are used for today.

But the problem you describe above - is unlikely to be caused by good breeding (whether for work or show) ... The shy, nervous Rottie that you describe would most probably be the result of irresponsible breeding ... and not the result of a carefully planned and researched litter by a reputable breeder (for work or show).

The irresponsible and disreputable breeder will breed dogs regardless & without care - and will invariably produce dogs with unpredictable temperaments, often showing either excessive nervousness/shyness and/or excessive aggression ... People who breed with money as the primary objective will invariably produce progeny with bad or unsuitable temperament (including bad health & conformation) ... and in so doing "undo" and "damage" all the good work done by previous generations of good & responsible breeders!


Question: " ... Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog ... why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems? What I am trying to say here is, why are traits that cause health problems considered beautiful/attractive? ... Aren't we the ones who are playing god with how they end up? ..."

Yes, Man often plays GOD in the sense you describe ... We do it with all animals ... we destroy the animals natural environment, we domesticate them ... then we place them in battery farms ... we change their looks and nature ... we do it with cats, dogs, cows, horses, chickens, ducks ... you name, it we do it ... sometimes out of need (as a food source) ... and sometimes for man's pleasure and/or use (as with dogs, cats & horses) ...

But in the case of dogs, by and large, the majority of breeds were developed for a purpose ... even toy dogs had a purpose, to look cute, be affectionate and provide us with affection ...

But I think your question is ... Given the nature of the Bulldog (as an example), with known difficulties in breathing, in birthing, in health etc ... is it right to go on breeding Bulldogs? ...

Why do we develop breeds with physical difficulties, sometimes to the point of making a breed almost handicapped? ...

WOW! ... It's a good question ... but an awfully hard one to answer ...

First, I guess - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you'd be surprised at how many people think the Bulldog is absolutely cute (ugly but adorable) ... And how many people love miniature ponies ... pygmy dogs & cats ... There is really no accounting for taste ... just look at the Chinese Crested ... Tongue

And second ... it depends on our individual point of view.

For example:

I find an irresponsible breeder who breeds a bitch season after season, just for the purpose of producing puppies to sell ... much more morally reprehensible than a responsible breeder breeding good Bulldogs and finds good homes for them ...

I also find a breeder who deliberately breeds for Bulldogs with ever flatter faces & bigger heads (not caring about the physical difficulties caused) ... more morally reprehensible than a breeder who breeds Bulldogs according to type and standard, with health issues in the forefront of their minds ...

I also find people who ill-treat dogs more morally reprehensible than breeders of Bulldogs.

As a corollary to your example of the Bulldog ... what about Great Danes? ... An average dog has a life span of 12years ... An average Great Dane, because of their genetic makeup, their metabolic & growth rate, lives only for about 7years ...

If you think about it ... the Great Dane is just about as handicapped as a Bulldog ... Should we also stop breeding Great Danes? ... What about Wolfhounds? ... What about Chihuahuas? They are so small and delicate - they live in constant danger of broken bones ...

So, it's a question of degree really ... and very personal ... Because the line to be drawn is very hard and very personal ...


And it's also a question of priorities ... Personally, I think we have a greater & more urgent problem with strays and abandoned dogs ...

Cheers




(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 23, 2004, 9:59 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 23, 2004, 10:15 AM

Post #55 of 161 (3731 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Riccaval, LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

You ar ... Tongue ... Loontoon Ingelish ... *LOL*...

Cheers


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 23, 2004, 10:45 PM

Post #56 of 161 (3721 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skipper] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ai'yo yo yo... This has brought in the best knights into the round table discussion. I am so proud to be able to put some much brain cells into this sometimes quiet urban story with my caption!

Anyway, soundness, type, temprement..etc..etc... is part and parcel of being 'champion' as I have quoted earlier.... 'Champion' in itself is not meant by the title as it is quoted as a figure of speech and understanding. This quote came from one of the GR news (GRCA-Golden Retriever Club Of America) where a very reputable lady put that quote out but of course she sum it up with whatever you guys have mentioned above and more!

As you all know, the understanding of "champion" is not in itself the title alone, it means so many things....type temprement, conformation, purpose, standards, definition, breeding, politics, negotiations....so on..... My caption was meant for simplicity and it serves a simple guideline to the green guys in this forum, their safest bet in Malaysia is still go back to "champions' breeding" should they want to get something good in conformation and health! A dog that obtain its title has to somehow conform to a certain degree of conformation and its health has to be somewhere there to win, health in this discussion simply means, its hips are good, descended testicles and most of the time scissor bite (lets not go into more complicated health issue, just basics), this is the most basic requirement in the achievement of the title "champion". In our environment here, we have breeders breeding mono dogs, hip problem dogs, undershot.. and all the crap and sells them to the clients quoting champion line, big head, big bone, big everything and by you big knights going into such deep discussions, not many of the greens could understand, they stay at home thinking and hoping that their dogs are gonna be a champion one day..! I get many private e-mails inquiring about their GR, most came with hip problems and some about dogshow and etc... So my advise to them is simple "Champion and Champion may or may not produce champions, non champion and non champion never produce champions" this quote suits that environment at that time and of course to solid breeder like yourself, this is not applicable! If I were to go down in details and discuss about breed standards, show environment, breeding requirements and etc to a new comer, I think I will better start a GR breeding consulting firm! LCK amd Skipper would best understand my quote as I am sure you come across many who ask you the questions I came across and to educate them, it takes a long time, not all are good learner as we had experienced, some after 3 days of listening becomes a self-professed Guru and start banging of them empty barrels! Anyway, enough said, I am proud to bring the gods and generals into this thread! Kudos!

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 24, 2004, 6:15 AM

Post #57 of 161 (3704 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RealityDreamer] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to hear you're not one of those hysterical animal libbers!!!!

As for your further questions i think Surch has answered them with such applomb and accuracy. I totally agree with what he has said.

As for that list i promised you all, these are the breeds facing extinction if Peta have their way:

Afghan Hound
Airedale Terrier
Australian Shepherd
Australian Silky Terrier
Australian Terrier
Basset Hound

Bedlington Terrier
Belgian Shepherd (4)
Bernese Mountain Dog
Bichon Frise
Bloodhound
Border Collie
Borzoi
Boston Terrier
Bouvier
Boxer
Brittany
Griffon Brucellois
Bulldog (English & French)
Bullterrier

Cairn Terrier
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Central Asian Shepherd Dog
Chihuahua
Chow Chow

Clumber Spaniel
Cocker Spaniel (American & English)
Collie (3)
Corgi (2)

Dandie Dinmont TErrier
Dachshund (6)
Dobermann

Eng Springer Span
Eng Toy Terrier
Finnish Spitz
Fox Terrier (Smooth & Wire)
German Pinscher
GSP (& Wire)
Glen of Imaal TErrier
Great Dane
Greyhound
Griffon
Gordon Setter
Hungarian Vizsla
Irish Terrier
Italian Spinone
Jack Russel
Japanese Chin
Kerry Blue Terrier
King Charles Spaniel
Lakeland Terrier
Large Munstalandeer
Manchester Terrier
Min Pin
Napolitan Mastiff
Newfoundland
Norfolk Terrier
Norwegian Buhund
Norwich Terrier
Old Eng Sheepdog
Papillon
Parson Jack Russel Terrier
Pekingnese
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Poodle (3)
Pug

Pumi
Rottweiler
Saluki
Schipperke
Schnauzer (3)
Sealyham Terrier
Shar Pei
Shih Tzu
St.Bernard
Soft Coated Weaten Terrier
Spaniel - Field, Irish & Water
Sussex Spaniel

Have put in BOLD the breeds that we have here in Malaysia.

Are you guys shocked? I was disgusted.

LCK Unimpressed
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


skipper
Novice

Oct 24, 2004, 6:45 AM

Post #58 of 161 (3700 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Reply in BLACK

Wah lau eh! Discussion is getting more and more interesting.



Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's I do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed.



“Newbie”…I didn’t find you rude or offensive. In fact I think you have asked some intelligent questions. Well, asking question is not disrespectful. But making misleading statement…is also not disrespectful but needs to be corrected if it is not true.



“As you say instincts which sets different breeds apart are impossible to breed out of them,how is it that there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners…”



LCK and Surchin have given some valid points as regards to “instinct”. I tend to believe if a Rottie cower in fear is not a good representative of the breed. Just like any other breeds they have their problems as well perhaps from bad breeding. Therefore, a responsible breeder will never use such dog in their breeding program.



Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog,why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems?



Agree with Surchin, beauty lies on the eye of the beholder. If I am not mistaken the reason why some GSDs has “banana croup” was because of moderate wither flowing into a slightly roach back with a steep croup. The German these days believe it should be higher wither flowing into a firm back and then into a long well laid croup. Now, who is right and who is wrong is very debatable. Perhaps, you should ask sound GSD breeders or judges and hear their views.



Anyway coming back to "Type" and "Soundness". I would think that breeding for "Soundness" should take precedence over others factors. In my opinion your "type" would come about eventually after generations of line and inbreeding..........



All breeders want to achieve everything at one go. Like Instant noodle. But if you ask established breeders I am sure they will tell you the “blue print” is the most important thing in breeding. It takes a step by step approach to establish good breeding stock. For example a Doberman breeder would want to see a blunt wedge head, clean cut parallel plane head, darkest possible almond eye shape with moderate fill under the eye that create the expression “The look of Eagle”. Just imagine if a Doberman loses that look, what good is soundness then? To the Boxer breeders I am sure they would love to breed the typical boxer head with nice repandous, which can only be found in Boxer. To the English Pointer breeders I am sure they wouldn’t want to breed Pointer with round bones and flat face. I am sure they want to see oval bones, dish face and a bee sting tail. What about the Cavalier breeder, I am sure they don’t want the ear set like the Eng. Cocker or ruby with white spot. To the Shih Tzu breeders I am sure they do not want an over bite Shih Tzu, they want under shot bite. To the Afghan will be the punishing jaw. The Lab breeders would certainly want to achieve a nice thick otter tail. Hungarian Visla – v shape ears. Irish Setter – rich mahogany without a single trace of black. The RR breeders, is the ridge at the back of the dog, the pattern, the length, the “samseng” look like Sunsun...lol... To the Lap Cheong Kau (LCK) - short little legs, long body, low to the ground, rounded croup, conical shape head…yak! LOL! Now, that’s the blue print of the breed. Just like every breed has their own blue print or hallmark.

If you look into the breed standards you will find 70% of the breed standard describes TYPE more than anything else. The breed standard described how the head should look like, how the body should be like, how the front and the hind should be when the dog stands, how angulated it should be, the tail, the colour, the size, the pigmentation, the coats the overall impression of the breed and etc etc these are all the characteristic of the breed which is also called type. Soundness of the breed is only described as “gaiting” in the breed standard. That doesn’t mean soundness is not important but type should be given priority over soundness. If a breeder put soundness or titles first, I feel he/she has missed the point in breeding. If I only want to breed a sound dog I don’t have to breed pedigree dogs, as breeding pariahs will also give me soundness in structure. That’s why people like Riccavall will keep breeding for millenniums and never produce a good CKCS as breeding for soundness only will produce a sound “dog” and NEVER a good CKCS!!!! That’s the reason why breeding is interesting because each and every good breeder will strive to breed as close as possible to breed standard and not just for soundness!!!!!!!!!!! What is the point of achieving soundness if you lose the typical look of the breed? It defeats the purpose of breeding. It goes the same to judges. Lucky you’re not a judge uncle Riccavall! Say for example if they have two dogs in the ring. One is very typey but reasonably sound and another is not that typey but very sound…the judge SHOULD choose type over soundness. I am not too sure what they teach our local judges here but I know for a fact that in overseas judges are taught type comes first. Any good established breeder worth their salt will also tell you the same. If they don’t then stay WELL CLEAR of their stock!!!! Just like buying property, what is the most important thing? Location and position than only the price. When you hear a property is available what is the first thing comes to your mind. Where, which place, if it interests you than the second thing you want to know is the price. It is the same with breeding and judging dogs. Type than soundness.




We often hear judges say “Oh! I was so pleased to know that I gave the 1st, 2nd and 3rd placing to father, son and grandson…” (Not necessary in that order) but judges usually are very proud of doing that. Many a time you also hear breeders say “…I really don’t know what he (the judge) is looking for…” simply means the judge was judging all over the place with no consistency in his judging. No consistency basically means not judging to type.



So I still maintain that in breeding type is the first priority as compared to soundness nor titles. There really is no argument on this folks – well that is if you want to breed good dogs. If a breeder strives to breed type first and then soundness, eventually Champion titles will follow.


(This post was edited by skipper on Oct 24, 2004, 6:48 AM)


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 24, 2004, 8:44 AM

Post #59 of 161 (3691 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilemost enlightening. I agree, we must leave judging to the experts.

well I think at our level, we should at least know what we are talking about as to "type". Eg. Breeders should know how a Lab should look like and not just take a dog that looks like a Lab and then mate to another one.

As I have mentioned to LCK in the earlier post as to the different 'type's in a particular breed. We have already establish the breed 'type' but some breeders strive to breed to a 'type' that distinguishes itself from another breeder of the same breed.

Having say that....., the breeder's priority is then to concentrate on soundness and after generations of breeding , the distinct 'type' of that particular breeder would surface. I might not be able to put it clearly but i hope you understand what I'm getting at.

I felt your comment to what I said was quite strong to the point of being a bit sarcastic but I respect your opinion, maybe if you really understand what I was trying to put through it would have been different.

Its true I'm still a novice having started breeding ckcs for less then 4 years.....but I certainly hope I dont need a millenium to breed a reasonably good ckcs...LOL

Cheers....no hard feelingsSmile


(This post was edited by Riccaval on Oct 24, 2004, 9:32 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 24, 2004, 11:09 AM

Post #60 of 161 (3678 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Riccaval, skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

(A) Skipper & LCK say that when it comes to breeding, it is "TYPE" before "SOUNDNESS" ...

(B) Riccaval says that " ... I would think that breeding for "Soundness" should take precedence over others factors. In my opinion your "type" would come about eventually after generations of line and inbreeding ..."


At first instance ... the 2 views above APPEAR different ...

Having re-read some of the posts, I suspect that you guys are actually of reasonably like-mind ... but may be expressing your views in a manner that gives the impression of disagreement.

Let try and explain what I mean ...

Before I start, let's make sure we are all in the same ball park.
  • By "breeding", we refer only to "responsible breeding" for the ultimate purpose of improving a pedigree breed, based on the relevant Standard.
If the above is correct, then even if we view "type" within a breed or interpret the Standard of a breed, slightly differently, it will probably make little difference in this discussion.

1st Assumption:

If a dog is sound BUT is "severely" of bad or poor type ... For example: The dog is a Labrador ... with good strong hips & bones ... good musculature & chest ... is physically sound all-round ... but has the muzzle of an Afghan and the tail of a Whippet ... then in such a case, I think everyone is agreed that such a dog ought not to be bred from.

The possible exceptions to the above, would probably be:
  • A breeder who truly knows his lines & lineage so well, and is convinced that the non-type features are only one-off aberrations, not likely to reappear in the generations to follow.
  • Or where the non-type elements are not so serious, it may be worth taking a chance. For example, some bitches, who may not be of the best type - can still make great brood bitches, throwing wonderful progeny when mated correctly.
2nd Assumption:

If a dog is of good type BUT has "severe" unsoundness ... Then no matter how typey a dog is, if it starts showing hip issues or exhibits unreasonable aggressive tendencies, or other health defects of a genetic nature ... then no responsible breeder will wish to breed from such a dog.

For example: No responsible RR breeder would breed from an RR with dermoid sinus, no matter how good type the dog is. No responsible breeder will breed from a Lab with HD no matter how lovely is otter tail.

Again, I think everyone also agrees with the above.


So, what is the difference between the 2 views, if any?

Given the above, and assuming that my assumptions are reasonably correct, then the differences in opinion only start to emerge when we are trying to decide between dogs of reasonably good type & reasonable soundness ...

It is only in a situation, where the "non-type elements" or "elements of un-soundness" are minor or not critical ... that opinions start to differ ...

(1) When LCK & Skipper say ... TYPE before SOUNDNESS ... they are not saying that soundness is NOT important (issue of soundness is very important to them) ... but just that the issue of TYPE is even more important ... and they will consider the issue of "type" first and then consider issue of "soundness" second ... But it does not mean that they will breed typey dogs that are significantly unsound.

(2) Similarly ... when Riccaval says - SOUNDNESS before TYPE ... he is also not saying that type is not important or that he will breed sound dogs with seriously bad or poor type ... Riccaval is just saying that he will be very cautious and perhaps not breed a typey dog - if it is not equally or substantially sound ... In other words, (perhaps) Riccaval prefers to work out serious issues of unsoundness from his lines BEFORE fine-tuning type.

If my summary of the above is correct ... then there is really not so much difference between the 2 views. The difference being more of individual preference, rather than any serious disagreement over Type or Soundness ...

And it is a difference that will only come to the forefront ... when placed in the position of having to choose or set priority between Type or Soundness in dogs that are reasonably well-matched in both type & soundness ...

Cheers



(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 24, 2004, 11:25 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 24, 2004, 12:59 PM

Post #61 of 161 (3670 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RealityDreamer] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Question: " ... there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat ... With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad, that this "instinct" of the rotts has disappeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait? ..."

I may not have answered your question completely earlier on ... sorry.

As mentioned earlier ... Members of the Canidae family start with basic & similar instincts ... For example: The instinct to guard itself, protect it's pack (it's off-spring), food & territory are common & basic to all dogs wherever found (for that matter, these instincts are basic to most species, including Man).

In the course of domesticating dogs ... Man also started selectively breeding for those instincts that Man found useful in the dog ... The guarding instinct (for obvious reasons) was an instinct Man found very useful, especially in the larger dogs ... Hence, today there are breeds, usually medium/large to large breeds, where such guard/protection instincts are very strong ...

But it must be remembered that the dog's original guarding/protection instinct was NOT to guard Man, Man's family or Man's property - the original instinct was for the dog to guard/protect itself, it's pack (it's off-spring), it's own food & territory ... etc.

Man realised the "self-serving" nature of the dog's instincts very early on ... and this is where "training" comes in ... Simultaneously with the breeding of dogs with "heightened" guard/protection instincts - Man also started training those dogs to use such "heightened & emphasised" instincts for the benefit of Man and at Man's command.

This is evident even today ... we will select pups (bred from guard/protection breeds) with most heightened or sharp personalities & instincts (we call them drives) and put such selected dogs through concentrated & intensive training to develop, modify & redirect those instincts - but this time for the purpose of guarding/protecting us and to do so at our command.

Thus ... (to me) by and large, a dog's ability and efficiency in protecting/guarding Man, his family & property - is more of a "trait" inculcated and trained by Man into a dog rather than a dog's original instinct.

If at all a guard/protection dog's desire to guard/protect Man is an "instinct" it is a much newer & more recent instinct, specifically inculcated & bred for by Man.

So, to your question specifically ... Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend?

Yes, it is ... But the instinct is, by and large, an instinct to guard/protect itself ... Whether or not, the Rottie will similarly guard or protect it's owner, it's owner's family or property ... will depend very much on one or both of the following:

(A) Whether the Rottie's basic instinct to guard/protect has been properly trained, to include guarding/protection of owner, family & property.

(B) Or, failing such training - it will depend on how strongly the Rottie identifies it's owner as part of it's pack. If there is strong pack bonding, then the Rottie may (even without formal training) defend, guard and protect it's owner - because guarding & protection of pack, is part of a Canidae's ORIGINAL instinct.

Take the RR for example: The Canidae's natural/original instinct to bond & form packs was selectively emphasised in the original development of the RR, such that a RR will bond strongly with & treat it's owner as a part of it's pack ... Which is why, even today - the RR has a reputation for being a one person or one family dog ... and for being "aloof" to others ... And may (even without training) protect/defend owner & family ...

As to your question - whether this guarding/protection instinct has been diluted through modern day breeding ... my thoughts are in the earlier post.

Cheers



(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 24, 2004, 1:11 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 24, 2004, 9:45 PM

Post #62 of 161 (3654 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

CORRECTION

Hi Brother Skipper,

That’s why people like Riccavall will keep breeding for millenniums and never produce a good CKCS as breeding for soundness only will produce a sound “dog” and NEVER a good CKCS!!!! That’s the reason why breeding is interesting because each and every good breeder will strive to breed as close as possible to breed standard and not just for soundness!!!!!!!!!!!

I disagreee with you on this statement, I think Brother Riccaval did produced some reasonably nice CKCS that's sound and reasonably typey. It may not be to your liking of the Best In Show quality like what you have shown to but he is breeding with very limited resources (not money concern) but the lousy CKCS owner's attitude, too many aunties in this breed! Well, he did bring his CKCS through the new millenium though!!!

What is the point of achieving soundness if you lose the typical look of the breed? It defeats the purpose of breeding. It goes the same to judges. Lucky you’re not a judge uncle Riccavall!

Alamak, Uncle Riccaval is an aspiration judge and has actually judged a match show at Klang recently! Though not an All Breed Championship Show but uncle still judge a match show and put up a Golden Retriever for BIS!!! BTW uncle skipper, talking about 'typey', the interpretation from one soul to another varies (what more from 1 country to another)! The standard serves everyone only as a benchmark but everybody's interpretation and understanding is different to a certain extent, that's why we need EXPERIENCED judges to put up the right dogs because they will determine the future of the breeds! Otherwise, all will be ruined!

Clangan


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 24, 2004, 10:29 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 24, 2004, 10:27 PM

Post #63 of 161 (3651 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mey Lim SM] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear all, sorry for this late reply and slightly out of present topic of discussion but I need to answer to this cause I freaking miss this out!!!

I'm not an anti-gan, I'm just speaking about things that I've really come accross. When Mr Gan mentioned that none of the Penang GR really make it to the top, yes, I do agree with him......... correct me if I'm wrong for the below was something I heard from some friends.


What I quoted was since 2000, non of the Penang GR make it to the top but I did ask you to enlighten me and correct me if I am wrong! I hope the Penagites will not be angered by this statement!!

In the last year Penang Dog Show, the one in Komtar Dom. It was a two days vanue.On Saturday, Mr Gan's GR lose to a Penang Lang. On Sunday, Mr Gan protest and the Penang Lang become way behind him. ( From that moment, I actually think that all those dogs shows things are bullshit, pure politics ). However, I'm not the type that goes joinning competition one, so I don't comment on things that I don't know.


Yes, i remember that show in Penang, I think Uncle LCK and many more remember that show too. I did not protest because I lost, I protested because that GR was severely undershot, this is witnessed by LCK and many more. Lots of attention are given to Golden Retriever's bite. The standard call for scissor bite, severity of level and misallignment are penalised accordingly. Undershot or overshot is a disqualification. That explains why I protested, a judge from Australia put this dog up for Reserve Best In Group and BOB. After that show, the dog was place last in every other show! Lucky for him judges under ANKC do not practice disqualification, at least I was told by the respective judge of the day that they do not practice disqualification!!! Meaning to say, one can still bring in a single testicle dog and win under her!!!

Again, I protested because I hold dear to the breed, the Golden Retrievers, I will not allow a wrong dog to win in any circumstances (that's why I protested but it went to deaf Australian's ears) because like I have mentioned, the judges will determine the future of the breed and if this particular GR was to be place highly, we are going to have GR in PENANG with undershot jaws which will not serve its purpose as a retriever with a soft bite! What more it is cheap and good!! With that, I've fail because my intention is not to win but to promote the breed to its most correct conformation and characteristics.

Again, to Mr Glangan, I'm sorry that I've gave you trouble........... Take one advice, yes, you are a pro, but you don't have to sound SOMBONG, for that was the flame that started the whole thing.


Ok lor, next time I will sound sexy-sexy ok...and not sombong lor!?!?




(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 24, 2004, 10:37 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 25, 2004, 6:21 PM

Post #64 of 161 (3614 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LCK] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi LCK,


In Reply To


Not entirely true my friend. I started in GSD so know about them a little. The Agression/temperament test is done with ONE guy appointed by the show to come and test the dog. He is the SAME guy for all the contestants. So it's definitely not a "friend" that the dog is familiar that they bring along to do the test. And let me assure you that if the handlers gave the dog the same command outside the ring the dog will still go for you! We can try it out??? LOL



OK....for the gan test....usually they're the same guy ( i mean same person for all dogs that take the trial/test). Yes u r right, some dog(s) will take u even out of the ring with command, but out of a million how many show GSDs will do that compare to the working one ? Fight or Flight ?

Surely we can always try it out.....if one day u and i have the opportunity and the time is right.....give me the full bite and hit me hard.....lol...this type of feeling is hard to express and explain, only when u take the bite u can feel it...it just GREAT.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 25, 2004, 8:30 PM

Post #65 of 161 (3601 views)
Shortcut
Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileHi Surch,
You sum up my thoughts very well, that was what I was getting at.
ThanksWink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 25, 2004, 9:53 PM

Post #66 of 161 (3592 views)
Shortcut
Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Gentlemen. Can i illustrate why Skipper and myself believe that as a breeder of any worth, you MUST first put TYPE over SOUNDNESS. Below is the breed standard for the CKCS. Please take the time to read through and then read my comments below.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

GENERAL APPEARANCE - Active, graceful and well balanced, with gentle expression.

CHARACTERISTICS - Sporting, affectionate, absolutely fearless.

TEMPERAMENT - Gay, friendly, non-aggressive; no tendency to nervousness.

HEAD AND SKULL - Skull almost flat between ears. Stop shallow. Length from base of stop to tip of nose about 3.8 cms (11ű2 ins). Nostrils black and well developed without flesh marks, muzzle well tapered. Lips well developed but not pendulous. Face well filled below eyes. Any tendency to snipiness undesirable.

EYES - Large, dark, round but not prominent; spaced well apart.

EARS - Long, set high, with plenty of feather.

MOUTH - Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. the upper teeth closely overlapping the lower teeth and set square to the jaws.

NECK - Moderate length, slightly arched.

FOREQUARTERS - Chest moderate, shoulders well laid back; straight legs, moderately boned.

BODY - Short-coupled with good spring of rib. Level back.

HINDQUARTERS - Legs with moderate bone; well turned stifle - no tendency to cow or sickle hocks.

FEET - Compact, cushioned and well feathered.

TAIL - Length of tail in balance with body, well set on, carried happily but never much above the level of the back. Docking optional. If docked no more than one-third to be removed.

GAIT/MOVEMENT - Free moving and elegant in action, plenty of drive from behind. Fore and hind legs move parallel when viewed from in front and behind.

COAT - Long, silky, free from curl. Slight wave permissible. Plenty of feathering. Totally free from trimming.

COLOUR - Recognised colours are:
Black and Tan - Raven black with tan markings above the eyes, on cheeks, inside ears, on chest and legs and underside of tail. Tan should be bright. White marks undesirable.
Ruby - Whole coloured rich red. White markings undesirable.
Blenheim - Rich chestnut markings well broken up, on pearly white ground. Markings evenly divided on head, leaving room between ears for much valued lozenge mark or spot (a unique characteristic of the breed).
Tricolour - Black and white well spaced, broken up, with tan markings over eyes, cheeks, inside ears, inside legs, and on underside of tail.
Any other colour or combination of colours highly undesirable.


SIZE -
Weight: 5.4-8 kg (12-18 lbs).
A small well-balanced dog well within these weights desirable.


FAULTS - Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.

NOTE - Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.


Everything is RED describes TYPE and everything in BLUE describes SOUNDNESS. Anything in GREEN represents a mixture of the two depending what you are referring to. So do you now see why Type takes precedence over Soundness. Guys none of you have to take our opinion as gospel and everyone in dog beeding is entitled to their opinion. But if you are seriously considering being a good breeder then follow the adage of Type of Soundness and then you can short cut your route to success as opposed to trying to be "clever" and thinking that soundness is more important and breeding for generations to get soundness and then realising you have lost type.

Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy. Why complicate a complicated enough process? That is what i can't understand.

Also want to stress Surch's point that whilst we put type over soundness that doesn't mean we will forgive a lame dog or one that moves unsoundly due to obvious health defects like hip problems or whatever. Of course we strive to when planning breedings make sure that we get type and soundness if possible. But we may sacrifice a LITTLE for soundness to get type fixed, as soundness is easier to fix than type.

Derrick as a Judge it did frighten me a bit lah that you will say soundness is more important than type and i'm glad you clarified what you were tyring to say. I think bec you used the word "precedence" is what sealed the whole thing. And i sincerely hope that when judging, judges are NOT looking for a dog that can do a perfect out and back, but one that is the best representative of its breed. Bec at the end of the day you have to ask yourself - "does it represent a good specimen of the breed."

But as i stated earlier folks - there are no set rules on how you have to breed your dogs. Do as you please. Just IMHO a foolish man tries to re-invent the wheel!! Some things you can argue about based on opinion and somethings have been tried and tested for centuries.


LCK Cool



In Reply To

(1) When LCK & Skipper say ... TYPE before SOUNDNESS ... they are not saying that soundness is NOT important (issue of soundness is very important to them) ... but just that the issue of TYPE is even more important ... and they will consider the issue of "type" first and then consider issue of "soundness" second ... But it does not mean that they will breed typey dogs that are significantly unsound.

(2) Similarly ... when Riccaval says - SOUNDNESS before TYPE ... he is also not saying that type is not important or that he will breed sound dogs with seriously bad or poor type ... Riccaval is just saying that he will be very cautious and perhaps not breed a typey dog - if it is not equally or substantially sound ... In other words, (perhaps) Riccaval prefers to work out serious issues of unsoundness from his lines BEFORE fine-tuning type.


Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 25, 2004, 9:57 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 25, 2004, 10:25 PM

Post #67 of 161 (3580 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surch,
You sum up my thoughts very well, that was what I was getting at.
ThanksWink


I would also like to sum up the aspiration judge's thought! To be a good judge, one should not only be able to spot the quality of a dog but able to interpret it in words and writing. It is an in-born talent to see a good dog and to be able to breed them to carry on the legacy of excellence, of course text books and experience counts too (what we call an eye for a dog, which I think is pretty much in-born and I know text books judges and cyber-breeder cum judges who are in its own way very educational!) but most importantly, to be able to interpret the standards of each breeds and express your point of view as a judge is utmost importance. That in itself shows your fluency in the breed you judge and the confident attached to it. The in-born talent, well, that's a talent that's cannot be incorporated! That is why those talent and experience if not nurtured by our club, MKA and if a judge needs a third party to sum up for him to express his or her points of views, all is ruined!!! If one is qualify as a judge, or even been considered at the 'call-off' All Breed Championship Show in Malacca show end of the year, and needs a 3rd party who have bred nothing to back up his explanation and statement, I am disgusted! I think he or she will be able to explain soundess, type and other required jargons used ever so frequent in the breeding or showing of dogs by themselves and be confident with it!

Anyway, the strong words are not meant to personal attack anyone but I hope one should learn up quickly and be a good future judge otherwise, one should just quit. Keeping quiet and be mild to everyone and try to get the right political alliance to obtain one's license, that's just going to be detrimental to many breeds in the future of Malaysia!!!!! And surely, I do not wish to be judge by a judge who could put up an undershot dog over a dog that's crowned American, Canadian and Malaysian Champion and not to mention the journey to the slaughter takes more than 5 hours in a yellow van!!!!!!!

Regards,



"Excellent Conformation champions & excellent conformation champion dogs and bitches may or may not produce conformation champion dogs and bitches but non conformation dogs and bitches never produces conformation champion dogs and bitches of maybe once in a while they do produce some sort of champions ......" p/s: This caption I hope is good enough for LCK and Suchinmy!!!


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 25, 2004, 10:26 PM

Post #68 of 161 (3579 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LCK, Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah so ... Smile ...

Would it also be fair to say ... that in in prioritising "Type" ... namely, the elements in "Red" ... A breeder would also be (more or less automatically) working towards the element of "Soundness" ... the element in "Blue"?

... Because, correct, good musculature & skeletal set, would naturally improve issue of action, drive and general movement ...

I am particularly looking at the following elements of the Standard:

NECK - Moderate length, slightly arched. FOREQUARTERS - Chest moderate, shoulders well laid back; straight legs, moderately boned. BODY - Short-coupled with good spring of rib. Level back. HINDQUARTERS - Legs with moderate bone; well turned stifle - no tendency to cow or sickle hocks. FEET - Compact ... TAIL - Length of tail in balance with body, well set on, carried happily but never much above the level of the back.

GAIT/MOVEMENT - Free moving and elegant in action, plenty of drive from behind. Fore and hind legs move parallel when viewed from in front and behind.

Cheers


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 25, 2004, 10:32 PM

Post #69 of 161 (3577 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Derrick as a Judge it did frighten me a bit lah that you will say soundness is more important than type and i'm glad you clarified what you were tyring to say.
---------------------------------------------------------
sorry i frighten youFrown


----------------------------------------------------------Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy.
----------------------------------------------------------
Madwhy u didn't tell me earlier........this is useful information.

Anyway.......thanks for the post, point has been taken and actually we were of the same view but wrong choice of words use by meTongue

cheersSmile


skipper
Novice

Oct 25, 2004, 10:32 PM

Post #70 of 161 (3577 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah yo yo uncle Riccaval, say lah early early you also agree...but because you said "precedence" mah....Anyway, I was not tying to be rude. Too excited....lol. At least you agree not breeding titles to titles...To do the RIGHT thing and trying to do things right is two different things. Ok Uncle you stay cool and have a nice day! Cheers mate.


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 25, 2004, 11:03 PM

Post #71 of 161 (3565 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smileno worrys man/mdm......i'm cool. I appreciate those who are learned and knows what they are talking about. I'm still very much a novice and still learning. Unlike some ppl who just dont admit it.Tongueand think that they know everything.

cheersWink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 12:28 AM

Post #72 of 161 (3551 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

---------------------------------------------------------
sorry i frighten youFrown

Is ok lah. Just don't forget that big guy like me can also get terperanjat lah!

----------------------------------------------------------
Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy.
----------------------------------------------------------
Madwhy u didn't tell me earlier........this is useful information.

That is why when you are serious about breeding dogs or even showing dogs, you must do three things:

1. Buy two books - Glossary of Canine Terms and Harry Spira's Canine Terminology. If these two books are not part of your library make sure you get it a.s.a.p. All dog show people must have these two "Bibles" in their library. Read it every night before you go to sleep and meditate upon it!!! Laugh And also have the breed standard of your dog and also for the entire group that your dog is part of. Study and UNDERSTAND what the definitions in your breed standards mean. Have an idea of the other breeds in your group so that when a judges places another dog in the group line up atleast you know why that dog is superior. Wink

2. Find a good sifu - for most Malaysians we would have to look overseas as there aren't many long term breeders in many breeds here so look to find mentors overseas who are longterm breeders and successful ones. By success i don't just mean in the showring but breeders who have CONSISTENTLY bred good dogs over a few generations. Have more than one sifu if possible and that will help you get an all round perspective as some breeders can tend to be insular in their views. Avoid breeders who say theirs is the BEST and everyone else garbage. Such people are blinkered and kennel blind. No single breeder will have it all.

Be prepared to travel overseas, visit these breeders, see their dogs in the flesh and to go over them too. Seeing pictures is one thing but putting your hands on the dog and watching it move will teach you so much more. Any good handler can stack a dog to make it show its best and cover faults, but movement and hands on assessment will tell you otherwise. Blush Follow them to shows and look at other dogs too. You must be able to evaluate the dogs standing ringside. Take pictures, take a video and watch it again and again. Talk to the other breeders and go over their dogs too. The more you see and more you feel the better you will become. Ask questions like "What are this dogs atributes?", "If you could improve on this dog what would you like to change?" (this is a polite way to say what are his/her faults) See any pups they have if possible. Be weary of breeders who rattle off titles of the parents or grandparents or show accolades and do not tell you any other information besides show wins. Ask about winning progeny - "What has this dog produced?"

NEVER be afraid to ask as by asking and exposing even that you are a novice you can learn so much. Shocked I remember hearing a breeder say a particular puppy is "still loose in the shoulder" at first i just nooded and then i decided to brave my stupidity being exposed and asked "what do you mean by loose in shoulder". As opposed to being mocked i was given an explanation and then showed how it looks!! Me no stupid anymore as now i know what they mean!! Tongue

You will have to visit a National show of your breed as that will be the opportunity to see as many of your chosen breed exhibited and that is a feast for the eyes. Our Dach National in Oz was last April and there were 600+ dachs there from all over Oz, NZ, UK, USA & Malaysia!!! Wink Non stop seeing them, going over them for 2 days was MAGIC! This was my third National and i NEVER miss one. I'm even off to the USA next year for their National! It's not a cheap hobby folks, so if you want to get good at it and get a good education, you're going to have to b prepared to spend the money. I buy every video available of any specialty show and I also regularly go over for shows to see the dogs, meet more breeders and talk, eat (not literally), sleep DOGS DOGS DOGS!!!

Sadly we do not have a large enough following here in Malaysia to be able to keep seeing the dogs in our ring an learn a lot as our numbers are sadly small. Frown So if necessary take the mountain to mohammed. There are no shortcuts in dogs and dog breeding. I visit kennels, stay with the breeders and learn learn learn. Help them wash their kennels or feed the dogs with them if need be, but all the time you're being immersed in DOGS and learning!


3. Be honest with yourself and your breeding. Angelic As i told you all before i get the input of several people whose opinion i respect. When assesing pups i will take pics and send to them and always say "HONEST BRUTAL COMMENTS PLEASE" and want them to give me honest opinions. Not BLESS ME comments like "sweet head" "sweet dog" "sweet pups". In my vocab or amongst my dog friends SWEET = PET. Laugh Don't assume that just because the pup stands four square, has good coat it's show worthy. I personally NEVER sell a show quality pup unless it is about 6-8 months old and lived with me all that time.

4. Have you achieved what you were trying to improve by doing this mating? Crazy This is a question i ask myself when assessing pups. I know the father had a good front, nice defined prosternum, good hindquarters. The Dam was weak in hindquarters so that is why i mated her to this dog who excels in hindquarters. (Please bear in mind that factors like type, lineage etc have already been taken account of) So do the pups have better hindquarters than their mum and as good as their dads? If no then why keep them? You've not improved the problem you sought to solve. These are the decisions a serious breeder has to make. No point saying "aiyah, i wanted some pups from BelleBelle lah so nevermind we just keep one lah and maybe next time we improve the problem" This attitude is that of a pet breeder. If you keep one each time you end up with a kampung of pets.
(Please understand that i've simplified the complexity of this subject to illustrate a point! No smart arse remarks from Skipper and Surch!) Mad

5. Accept the fact that sometimes most of us start of with pets. Unsure If we are keen on showdogs then we might have to get rid of the pets (by this i mean keep them at home not kill them) and not insist on bringing them to every show and getting disheartened by being placed LAST. Go and find a good show worthy dog and spend the money if you have to to buy one. but please don't get caught up by the adage that MOST expensive is the best. Not always, but with ofcourse be prepared to pay and not expect to get a freebie cheapo dog. Freebie cheapo one then you might as well continue showing your pet. Shocked

Anyway.......thanks for the post, point has been taken and actually we were of the same view but wrong choice of words use by meTongue

That's why you cannot just tembak tembak simply. Must explain oneself fully and concisely or else people tembak you! Pirate In any forum when posting an opinion make sure you have explained yourself clearly and to the understanding of everyone reading it. Assuming people know what you mean only makes an ASS out of U and ME!!! SmileTongue (ASS U ME!) Remember how this whole thread began??? LOL Wink

cheers

LCK Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 26, 2004, 12:44 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 12:36 AM

Post #73 of 161 (3545 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm still very much a novice and still learning. Unlike some ppl who just dont admit it.Tongueand think that they know everything.

cheersWink



LOL ! You crack me up Derrick!!! Yeah some are born know it all!Tongue

No lah you not novice. Novice is the one who just bought their first show dog! You have traveled overseas etc and bought several dogs into the country! Wink

Lck Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 12:37 AM

Post #74 of 161 (3543 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy.



OK....i learned something new today and this will be benificial to me and thsoe that read this thread and understand it.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 12:53 AM

Post #75 of 161 (3534 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

hi LCK,


Quote


This is a question i ask myself when assessing pups. I know the father had a good front, nice defined prosternum, good hindquarters. The Dam was weak in hindquarters so that is why i mated her to this dog who excels in hindquarters. (Please bear in mind that factors like type, lineage etc have already been taken account of) So do the pups have better hindquarters than their mum and as good as their dads?



Do u mind eleborate more........this is interesting.......how would this apply to a working GSD ? like may be a nerve of steel, driveys male but a bit aggressive (civil edge) mated to the average/moderate working female with calm temperement or a show bitch (hope not yucks) ............will actually
  1. dilute the nerve ? drives ? of the male ?
  2. produce an animals with moderate nerve/drives with calm temperement
  3. or best of both world with the high drivey and nerve of steel dog with super calm temperement....


of coz this is no simple equation and i do understand this, the dogs behind the sire/dam also taken into consideration (for 5 level up may be).

How do u access this so called breeding/mating in general........

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All
 
 




Copyright 2001~ 2002 Hileytech Sdn Bhd , All Rights Reserved.  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement
For comments and Suggestion, Please contact the Webmaster at puppy@puppy.com.my