surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA
Oct 23, 2004, 9:04 AM
Post #54 of 161
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Re: [RealityDreamer, boon, LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!"
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Hi ya you ... " ... Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's I do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed ..." Ahyoooh ... all this deference is surely not meant for me ... you have never been afraid of me ... ... So, it must be LCK you are worried about ... *LOL* ... But don worry lar ... LCK is a cuddly teddy bear ... velly nice fella - so don be scared of him ... Just imagine a big black coated Pyrenees with the temperament of a puppy Retriever - that be him! ... Question: " ... Also is there an official statement saying that country x is the country of origin and country y is country of developement or is this something "everyone knows" when you get into the breed? ..." I will answer your question from a slightly different perspective, than that posted by LCK. Dog breeding is in a constant state of flux, with changes going on all the time ... some of it good, some not so good. With some older breeds, there is little dispute over the country of origin or the country of development ... but I would not be surprised if even that changes as time passes. Take the Akita for example ... country of origin is Japan ... but country of development? It depends on what kind of Akita you are looking at. You will find a distinct and different Akita in USA from the one in Japan ... Visit these sites to see the differences: www.akita.com/prosplit/katie.htm www.americanakitas.com/split_information.htm In FCI countries, the US Akita is now known as the Great Japanese Dog ... As more and more people from all over the world start expressing their individual/cultural/regional interpretation of the various Breed Standards ... the distinction between country of origin and country of development - is probably going to get blurred as time goes on. And sometimes there is a deliberate departure from a known breed. For example: The Shiloh Shepherd is obviously based on the GSD, and save for the initial start point where Malamutes were out-crossed into the breed ... it remains predominantly a GSD based dog. But is it still a GSD? ... Or is it a new breed with a completely new country of origin? Taking your GSD example ... Yes! since the time of Max von Stephanitz ... the GSD has evolved ... and today, show GSDs are different from working GSDs ... GSDs in USA are different from European GSDs ... and so on ... All this is simply a reflection of the changes in the reasons why people breed GSDs today ... As those purposes change, evolve and get modified, the breeds (including traits, temperament & conformation) also change, evolve and get modified ... Whether the changes are for better or worse ... that is another question and one of great debate ... But that changes have taken place remains a fact ... Question: " ... there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat ... With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad, that this "instinct" of the rotts has dissapeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait? ..." As for "instincts" ... dogs are from family canidae ... and as such, they all share common & similar basic instincts ... the instinct for survival, instinct for reproduction, instinct for guarding of territory & food ... instinct for self preservation & defence ... etc. What Man has done is to bred selectively (for hundreds of years) emphasising and promoting certain & selected desired instincts in certain breeds ... for particular purposes ... Because of this selective and specialised breeding ... each breed evolved its own specific, dinstinct & heightened "instincts" ... Hence, the guarding instinct in a Dober is stronger than that of a Labrador ... the scenting instinct in a Beagle is stronger than that in a Saluki ... etc ... And such distinct & heightened instincts have to be maintained through continual selective breeding ... otherwise nature & evolution demands that they moves back to a median ... But as times change ... as mentioned above ... the purpose for breeding dogs have also changed ... and with change in purpose - emphasis on the type of instinct to be bred and maintained in a breed has also changed ... and because of that ... you will find that the original basic instincts originally bred & promoted into certain breeds may not be as desired today as they were then ... And because of that, some of the original instincts & traits have or are being slowly bred out (sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentially) of the breeds ... All this is all just a reflection of the times ... and what dogs are used for today. But the problem you describe above - is unlikely to be caused by good breeding (whether for work or show) ... The shy, nervous Rottie that you describe would most probably be the result of irresponsible breeding ... and not the result of a carefully planned and researched litter by a reputable breeder (for work or show). The irresponsible and disreputable breeder will breed dogs regardless & without care - and will invariably produce dogs with unpredictable temperaments, often showing either excessive nervousness/shyness and/or excessive aggression ... People who breed with money as the primary objective will invariably produce progeny with bad or unsuitable temperament (including bad health & conformation) ... and in so doing "undo" and "damage" all the good work done by previous generations of good & responsible breeders! Question: " ... Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog ... why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems? What I am trying to say here is, why are traits that cause health problems considered beautiful/attractive? ... Aren't we the ones who are playing god with how they end up? ..." Yes, Man often plays GOD in the sense you describe ... We do it with all animals ... we destroy the animals natural environment, we domesticate them ... then we place them in battery farms ... we change their looks and nature ... we do it with cats, dogs, cows, horses, chickens, ducks ... you name, it we do it ... sometimes out of need (as a food source) ... and sometimes for man's pleasure and/or use (as with dogs, cats & horses) ... But in the case of dogs, by and large, the majority of breeds were developed for a purpose ... even toy dogs had a purpose, to look cute, be affectionate and provide us with affection ... But I think your question is ... Given the nature of the Bulldog (as an example), with known difficulties in breathing, in birthing, in health etc ... is it right to go on breeding Bulldogs? ... Why do we develop breeds with physical difficulties, sometimes to the point of making a breed almost handicapped? ... WOW! ... It's a good question ... but an awfully hard one to answer ... First, I guess - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you'd be surprised at how many people think the Bulldog is absolutely cute (ugly but adorable) ... And how many people love miniature ponies ... pygmy dogs & cats ... There is really no accounting for taste ... just look at the Chinese Crested ... And second ... it depends on our individual point of view. For example: I find an irresponsible breeder who breeds a bitch season after season, just for the purpose of producing puppies to sell ... much more morally reprehensible than a responsible breeder breeding good Bulldogs and finds good homes for them ... I also find a breeder who deliberately breeds for Bulldogs with ever flatter faces & bigger heads (not caring about the physical difficulties caused) ... more morally reprehensible than a breeder who breeds Bulldogs according to type and standard, with health issues in the forefront of their minds ... I also find people who ill-treat dogs more morally reprehensible than breeders of Bulldogs. As a corollary to your example of the Bulldog ... what about Great Danes? ... An average dog has a life span of 12years ... An average Great Dane, because of their genetic makeup, their metabolic & growth rate, lives only for about 7years ... If you think about it ... the Great Dane is just about as handicapped as a Bulldog ... Should we also stop breeding Great Danes? ... What about Wolfhounds? ... What about Chihuahuas? They are so small and delicate - they live in constant danger of broken bones ... So, it's a question of degree really ... and very personal ... Because the line to be drawn is very hard and very personal ... And it's also a question of priorities ... Personally, I think we have a greater & more urgent problem with strays and abandoned dogs ... Cheers
(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 23, 2004, 9:59 AM)
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