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"Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!"







surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 15, 2004, 3:16 AM

Post #1 of 161 (7053 views)
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"Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" Can't Post

quote:

"Champion and champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion and non champions never produces champion!"



The comment above gave me a good laugh. I think we discussed this issue a long time ago on this very forum when it first began.

Sorry to burst your bubble sifu Gan but that comment is utter tripe! Actually tripe quite tasty so i guess its utter rubbish!

Maybe after long enough in GR you will learn that non champion can produce champions and even become top producers. I know of many dogs that were never ever shown but produced champion after champion.

I myself have several at home who have never seen a showring but have produced Philippine Gr. Ch. Hall of Fame winners and Mal. Champions too. So how ah? You see sometimes we buys in lines through dogs that we know will never be show stoppers but who have the genetic make-up through their ancenstors who will be able to produce the goods if mated to the right dogs. When sitting down to plan a mating one should look at a 5 generation pedigree, trace back the ancestors and list the virtues and faults of these dogs and see if putting dog A & bitch B together will perpetuate a fault or hopefully correct one. It's a bit of a piece-meal and then you hope of the best.

But you need to trace back ATLEAST 3 generations to see if your planned breeding will give you what you want. When looking at the pedigree the letters CH in front of names diminish into insignificance as compared to virtues and faults. Or atleast it should do!

As such, non champions mated to the RIGHT non champions CAN produce champions.

I myself see no point in taking a dog or bitch to be shown just so they carry the CH words if in your heart you know that the animal is not worthy of the title CH. However what it carries genetically may be fantastic! Being involved in a breed where i need only beat myself, i have never practiced taking them in to make them CH, bec if in my mind they are not worthy of the title why bother. What does it prove? I doubt it increases saleability.

Just my 5 sen worth (enough money to send sms on celcom!)

LCK Smile

"HACIENDA"


*** The posting above is made with permission of author.


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 15, 2004, 3:21 AM)


Mey Lim SM
Member

Oct 15, 2004, 9:50 AM

Post #2 of 161 (7029 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I was the one who started that battle field........... sorry loh!!!

I'm not an anti-gan, I'm just speaking about things that I've really come accross. When Mr Gan mentioned that none of the Penang GR really make it to the top, yes, I do agree with him......... correct me if I'm wrong for the below was something I heard from some friends.

In the last year Penang Dog Show, the one in Komtar Dom. It was a two days vanue.On Saturday, Mr Gan's GR lose to a Penang Lang. On Sunday, Mr Gan protest and the Penang Lang become way behind him. ( From that moment, I actually think that all those dogs shows things are bullshit, pure politics ). However, I'm not the type that goes joinning competition one, so I don't comment on things that I don't know.

The other winners that I've mentioned are actually not GR, I know their owner very well and I know the price they paid for their winning pets, and it is really far, far way below the "CH market price."

Again, to Mr Glangan, I'm sorry that I've gave you trouble........... Take one advice, yes, you are a pro, but you don't have to sound SOMBONG, for that was the flame that started the whole thing.


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 15, 2004, 6:34 PM

Post #3 of 161 (7006 views)
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Re: [Mey Lim SM] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ya Mey ...

Don't worry about it ... you did nothing wrong ... and you are as entitled as everyone else in this forum to express your view ... Smile ... As long as we follow the rules of the Forum, we are all entitled to express our views.

Just treat this as an interesting topic of discussion ... so, that we can all read and perhaps learn ... about breeding pedigrees ...

As for dog conformation showing ... understand what you mean ...

The rules for dog conformation showing are designed to be fair & unbaised ... so that dogs achieving the title Champion are supposed to be good specimens of that breed ... and both the dog & owner can be justifiably proud of their achievement.

But sometimes the rules are abused or broken, and this happens wherever dog showing takes place ... And I guess, like it or not, it's just part and parcel of the whole dog showing scene everywhere ... Much depends on the relevant association maintaining the rules ...

Many different factors motivate people into showing their dogs ... some find it enjoyable, others find it profitable ... some both ... There are probably as many reasons as there are people showing dogs ... *Laugh* ...

Cheers


sbt
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2004, 2:01 AM

Post #4 of 161 (6968 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay! that is a "Breath of Fresh Air" around.

COOL! There is still hope for Non-Champion offspring. Anyone dare to dream?
A Dog is for Life, Not just for Christmas


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 16, 2004, 3:25 AM

Post #5 of 161 (6957 views)
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Re: [sbt] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

For sure it is possible - to get off-spring good enough to be titled even when the dam & sire are themselves not titled ... But emphasis is on the word ... "possible" ...

But I would not like to leave the impression that simply putting 2 pedigrees of the same breed together - will produce champions or is likely to produce champions.

Maybe it is safest to say this:

General Statement A: Dogs (and bitches) of good conformation, temperament & type (even without title) ... will have chance of producing good quality off-spring ...

General Statement B: The more consistently good conformation, temperament & type appears in the background of a dog (or bitch) ... the more likely that dog (or bitch) may reproduce such good qualities in its off-spring.

General Statement C: But all of the above - is complicated by the fact that you need to put a dog & bitch together to get pups ... Tongue ...

The very act of combining 2 sets of genes together - increases permutation and variation ... The fact that there is also possibility of throw-back and recessives coming into play - complicates things even more!

And all this makes breeding very variable, sometimes unpredictable and ... interesting.

So, a smart and experienced breeder will try to increase his or her chances of getting good quality pups by selecting the "right" good quality dog to go over the "right" good quality bitch ... always trying to balancing the strengths & weaknesses of the dog & bitch, not just as they are manifested in the dogs physically but also those which may be hidden in the genes & bloodlines ...

And in the effort to try and find the "right" dog for the "right" bitch, a breeder will examine very carefully in detail, the background of the dog & bitch, going over their bloodlines, their previous litters ... etc.

Good breeders will even plan ahead, and will be prepared to breed generations of dogs, just to try and get the "right" dog or bitch not now, but several generations down the line.

The mark of a good breeder lies in consistency ... not only do they breed good dogs, but the dogs they breed ALSO produces good quality dogs consistently through the generations.

It is this consistency that marks the difference between a one-time lucky breeder and a knowledgable breeder.

Which is why, serious and responsible breeders do not boast when they have a few titled dogs ... instead they emphasis a quality breeding programme, that consistently produces quality dogs over time.

A successful breeding programme is not just about putting a Champion to a Champion. And whether a dog or bitch is titled or not - is just one of the many factors that have to be studied & evaluated in its correct perspective.

Cheers


jaytan
Canine Addict


Oct 16, 2004, 5:51 PM

Post #6 of 161 (6946 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, When we are discussing mongrels, pooping and humping, everyone is a doggie lover and great friends. Somehow, when the topic turns to kibble brands, breeding and champions, then the discussion becomes very prickly. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Best regards,J


ciscoguy
New User


Oct 16, 2004, 5:57 PM

Post #7 of 161 (6944 views)
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Re: [jaytan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

i think all the time where was only one cocky fella up here......geeeezz


jaytan
Canine Addict


Oct 16, 2004, 9:20 PM

Post #8 of 161 (6936 views)
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Re: [ciscoguy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

hi ciscoguy, I suspect that many share your sentiment which is understandable. Lets try to be a bit tolerant lah. After all, it is much easier for the rest of us to participate since we can choose to be anonymous, we dont have to live up to expectations and we dont represent any formal interest. So we dont have to be so conscious about public perceptions or politically correctness. All the same, your point is valid. Best regards,J


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 16, 2004, 9:26 PM

Post #9 of 161 (6933 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Uncle Surchin,

WHat I explain is that when I qouted that quote about ch and ch may or may not produce Ch but non and non, nevers, it is about the bloodlines and not the dogs'direct parents that are required Champions, what I mean is a true blue pedigree...! Anyway, I am sure Gopi did not allow you to cut and paste from the other forum, this is very unprofessional coming from a lawyer and a Ridgeback owner !!! Anyway, you misinterpreted my quote, well, maybe you should go deeper into breeding and stop becoming a "cyber breeder" and trying very hard to prove a point in the forum!! Prove yourself first dude in your breeding and show rings first la!!! I think Gopi will explain to you the catual explanation, it is his responsibility now!!! The rest I will leave to you to decide!!!

clangan


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 16, 2004, 9:38 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 17, 2004, 11:42 AM

Post #10 of 161 (6899 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Uncle?

... How respectful ... And then after that you abuse me ... Cool ... Why like that wan? ... Pirate

" ... this is very unprofessional coming from a lawyer and a Ridgeback owner !!! Anyway, you misinterpreted my quote, well, maybe you should go deeper into breeding and stop becoming a "cyber breeder" and trying very hard to prove a point in the forum!! Prove yourself first dude in your breeding and show rings first la!!! I think Gopi will explain to you the catual explanation, it is his responsibility now!!! The rest I will leave to you to decide!!! ..."

First, what has career, profession or breed of dog owned, have to do with this discussion? ... We discussing "breeding champions from untitled dogs & bitches" right? ... We are not discussing your career prospects are we?

Second, what is there to misinterpret? ... Your statement is reproduced in all its glory, word for word ... as YOU wrote it ... There is no misinterpretation ...

Third, everytime someone disagrees with you ... you get abusive and start issuing challenges ... as if the issuance of a challenge somehow justifies your petulant behaviour ... or makes you right.

Let me let you in on a little secret ... Wink ...

I don't have to be a carpenter to appreciate good carpentry ... Nor do I have to be a gardener to like flowers ... and I certainly don't need to be stupid to recognise a duh statement when I read one ...

Finally, even if you modify your original statement to include a reference to bloodlines ... it is still WRONG! ...

Have a look at these websites containing pedigree records kept by truly experienced breeders.

And you will see Champions coming from bloodlines absolutely WITHOUT titles ... There are plenty of examples, going back 5 generations without a single trace of any titles in the bloodlines ...



www.harjaselan.com/Paavopedresearch.htm

members.westnet.com.au/makrhod/Pedigrees.html




So, how ar??? ... Maybe you'd like to modify your statement again? ...

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 17, 2004, 12:33 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 19, 2004, 3:30 AM

Post #11 of 161 (6846 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Cyber breeder + empty barrel = makes the loudest noise TongueCool...!!!


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 19, 2004, 3:32 AM)


tgs006
Novice

Oct 19, 2004, 6:12 AM

Post #12 of 161 (6832 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope that it will not end up as in the case of vs Walter Lee Wink


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 19, 2004, 9:27 PM

Post #13 of 161 (6800 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchin,

Today I finally find sometime to reply to your mail. I hope I did not abuse you the way you mentioned it previously..! Blush"Somehow you're going to keep defending this Surchin cyber-breeder theory till the bitter end. And you are entitled to, so best we don't try to convince each other of our own opinions." also quoted by LCK, Hacienda except the italic bit!

You are more than welcome to quote your opinion and suggestions you learned from the web-sites by pasting web sites from others experience to prove your points but I will stick to mine from my hands-on experience. There are many guys I met like you, even in the Karate forum, there we respectfully address them as cyber-Karateka (who have many resources on web-sites and always trying to prove a point by pasting others experience or opinion because they have none of their own experience to back their own statements) and here I respectfully address you as a Cyber- Champion breeder. Thank you.

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 20, 2004, 2:53 AM

Post #14 of 161 (6776 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Gentlemen. Let's just settle this once and for all and get on with life ok. Name calling etc is not constructive and wastes time dragging me to post on forums!!!!

OK According to Gan what he meant to say was that "Champion LINE and Champion Line mated may never produce champion but Non Champion LINE and Non champion LINE can never porduce Champions."

Ok to me that has a LITTLE bit more logic than the earlier statement and hence my posting. But it doesn't mean that dogs without champion titles to their name can never produce champions, as proved by Surchin through the pedigree url's posted earlier. However my own personal feeling is a compromise of the two. In that, don't expect to take your "pet" quality GR or whatever breed and mate it to another "pet" quality animal and hope that a few generations down the road you can produce a champion. Dogs from a champion lineage will have a higher likelihood of producing champions than dogs from totally non champion lines and by that i mean some backyard breeder who just mates any dog to any bitch. No champion dogs (titled) who have been carefully bred for the showring and who display and carry superior traits of that breed CAN produce champion progeny even if they are not champions themselves.

Let me point out that in the UK and certain European countries to gain a Champion title is near impossible as competition is very very stiff and so a quality dog who may be capable of gaining his champion title in a country where competition is not so intense, mey be an animal who is capable of producing champion progeny but may himself not be able to win his title. Hence non "champion" dogs can produce champions, but just remember that the breeder has most likely been very meticulous about breeding a quality animal from other similar quality animals over a period of time and all these animals whilst not champions themselves exemplify the breed standard and carried many good breed traits. Mating a bitch or dog from basically "pet'' lines to a dog or bitch from champion lines is not going to produce miracles. It you're lucky then it will be a miracle. It can take generations of careful breeding to get your desired animal. That is why to save the hassle i recommned people buy from good lines to start off with.

Is that as clear as mud? Anyway if your unsure ask. I would hate for any novices to go off thinking that a good stud dog is one that HAS to carry a Ch. title and at the same time i'd hate of any novices to think that their LULU who has a perdigree certificate mated to next doors MOOMOO can produce champions just by putting the two together!!! It's just more complicated than that and that is why uncle Gan it's best not to put generalized statements like that down as many greenhorns can misunderstand things VERY easily.

For those who are bored by this discussion - SORRY. But being a free list we all have a right to post and if it bores you then hit delete. But someone out there (hopefully) might benefit from this info. I've seen too many people buy a pedigree dog and who are told by the breeder that its a pedigree so can show it. They turn up to the show with a pure pet and get so disappointed when they lose. That is why a responsible breeder should sell pedigree dogs classed as PETS or SHOW POTENTIAL.

JMHO.

LCK ;-)
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 20, 2004, 5:23 AM

Post #15 of 161 (6764 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Uncle Gopi,

So free visiting gundog turf? Ai'ya, I understand what you've written and at the same time I know the system practise by the European which is the same as ours. That's why Uncle Gan are still able to fly high here ma, otherwise we are going to have Lulu and Moomoo champions all over the country, just like some breeds where there are only one dog in the line up! The American system encourages more champions but if there are less than 12 dogs, there is no major awarded, that will not get the dog to finish. That's why in the Phillipines, they are easier to finish their title and some other less competitive countries that practises the American system. Well, I will let the cyber-champion breeder continue his dream while I continue to breed my Champions lor...! Anyway, what I don't understand is that why the cyber-champion took our post in the other forum and paste it here and talk like he has bred champions and knows everything and sign off using your ID? Sa per dhek pandi pee?

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 20, 2004, 7:27 PM

Post #16 of 161 (6731 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I'm always free when the record has to be set straight! Wink Generalised comments like the one you made on a forum that has many beginners is not right. It's time we educated people and got rid of the "big bone, big head" mentality that many people have when "assessing" the quality of a dog. Just read our local classifieds and you will see them proclaim "big head, big bone" like they are selling a prized calf for slaughter. What does having a big head have to do with a healthy animal? Ziltch. Crazy

That was why i allowed Surchin to cross post this message as it started in this forum, was taken across to the BnG forum and hence back to Puppy.com. He never signed off with my name but merely cross posted the message lah pandi. What's the big issue uncle Gan? Tongue Isn't that what you said? Didn't i clarify your statement? So why are you still whinging? I know a good vet who can debark and i'm sure if i passed the hat around many people will donate towards the durgery in first class ward some more. Cool I will even bring you Jacobs Biscuit and grapes. Ok or not? Pirate

As for the American system of majors - it is a well know fact that many breeders will bring a whole kampung of dogs - often their old retired dogs - to show on the day so that there are enough dog that to make a major!! And to correct you in the Philippines you also need the majors to become a champion so it still requires X amount of dogs to be present. So not really that easy as you say. Laugh

Bye for now Cool

LCK


In Reply To
Hello Uncle Gopi,

So free visiting gundog turf? The American system encourages more champions but if there are less than 12 dogs, there is no major awarded, that will not get the dog to finish. That's why in the Phillipines, they are easier to finish their title and some other less competitive countries that practises the American system. Anyway, what I don't understand is that why the cyber-champion took our post in the other forum and paste it here and talk like he has bred champions and knows everything and sign off using your ID? Sa per dhek pandi pee?


Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 20, 2004, 8:03 PM

Post #17 of 161 (6725 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Waaah ... so many post here already ar ... And also, now can really call you "uncle" hor ... congrats Smile

Back to the discussion at hand ...

If the statement had been ... "Champions or Champion lines are more likely to produce Champions" ... that would have been most acceptable ... The use of the word "NEVER", it not only obtuse but wholly misleading.

Perhaps some leeway ought to be given due to limited comprehension but how - when self grandiosities flourish like fungus on wet bread?

The fact of the case is ... everytime a breed is registered for the first time with any association or federation, the initial batch of champions will be the only champions in that newly introduced breed ... and will continue to be so until sufficient dogs get titled, and a pool of "officially" recognised lines are developed.

It will be most interesting to see what happens if the Shiloh Shepherd is accepted and recognised.

Even though RRidgebacks have been around for a while, they remain a marvellous case in point. Perhaps because of its origin, the mystic of introducing original African blood still intrigues many RR breeders (I suppose it's the same with other breeds too, GSDs from Germany, Tibetan Sp from the Himalayas etc), and many RR breeders still seek out older SAfrican RR lines from Glenaholm and Pronkberg for outcrossing.

But for some reason, many substantial Glenaholm and Pronkberg dogs were never shown to title. Perhaps because of scarcity in competition, the distances involved ... maybe Cdy of SRridge will know the exact reason. But whatever the reason, even as recently as 10 or so years ago ... as can be seen from Harjaselan's incredibly detail research into her own lines ... Titled RRs were coming out of lines without previous titles or with a very small smattering of titles.

As an aside, just last year, our friends from SRidge, R'nal and KJala (who you met recently) were very close to importing some Glenaholm/Karoskloof semen for use ... but in the end, they chose to go with Gatsby instead.

But ultimately, as is your point ... the longer a breed is registered, the more established the champion gene pool becomes, the less likely breeders (especially novice breeders who are more eager to establish quickly titled dogs) are inclined to look outside established lines.

While there is much to be said for sticking with developed lines - why start a new kennel 50yrs behind everyone else, when good lines are available, that shortens period of development ... it's a safer for sure (especially (as you say) with tough competition in many breeds) - some questions do arise:

For the pedigree buyer:

Yes, it's good that pedigree buyers realise that "big bone & big head" is not always the mark of a good specimen ... Unnaturally over-developed skeletal structure, carries many dangers of its own ...

Restriction of gene pool?

Has an alternative scenario is developed today? How is the propensity of relying on developed lines affecting the breeds generally? ... Is this actually better for the breed in the longer run? ... Most commonly, the issue of restricted gene pool is raised when discussing this question ... That is one issue.

Show conformation instead of type?

But more that, especially when looking at the way some breeds are going (US lines being a good example) ... Is this propensity to stick with so-called winning/champion lines causing not just health but serious conformation & type issues?

Are we going to see more and more dogs with - high or show stepping gaits, flashy in the extreme ... sloping toplines from withers to croup ... excessive angulation ... new neck and tail sets - just because they win, with perhaps scant regard to type & purpose ...

Show temperament instead of breed temperament?

Perhaps of most interest to me ... is it also bringing "change in breed temperament"? ...

Has this reliance on so-called Champion lines led to dogs being bred with "show temperament" as opposed to typical breed temperament?

This development is perhaps not so apparent with naturally gregarious breeds, and may be seen more clearly in some working/guard/herding type breeds ... dogs that show and behave well for the show ring - because they have had their breed type temperament bred out of them.

Are we starting to get breeds with homogenous temperament?

Does the maxim "best to the best" mean the same as it did 20years ago?

Has the maxim, breeding the "best to the best" been reduced to matching dogs from the lines with the most titles ... rather than matching dogs that conform best to type, standard & purpose? ...

And if so - is this what breeders truly believe is best for the breed? - Or is winning & money (with the event of sponsorship) now the overriding factor.

While time cannot be turned back - sponsorship & money shows are here to stay ... Would breeds not benefit from knowledgeable "mavericks" who would dare more ... and bring moderation back into play?

While many in this Forum are not breeders, a discussion on these issues may still be of interest to some ... and your thoughts will be appreciated.

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 20, 2004, 8:28 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 21, 2004, 1:03 AM

Post #18 of 161 (6700 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Waaah ... so many post here already ar ... And also, now can really call you "uncle" hor ... congrats Smile Thanks Tau keh!

Back to the discussion at hand ...

If the statement had been ... "Champions or Champion lines are more likely to produce Champions" ... that would have been most acceptable ... The use of the word "NEVER", it not only obtuse but wholly misleading. Totally 100% agree. Never was the word that basically got me going.
Perhaps some leeway ought to be given due to limited comprehension but how - when self grandiosities flourish like fungus on wet bread?
LOL.
The fact of the case is ... everytime a breed is registered for the first time with any association or federation, the initial batch of champions will be the only champions in that newly introduced breed ... and will continue to be so until sufficient dogs get titled, and a pool of "officially" recognised lines are developed.

It will be most interesting to see what happens if the Shiloh Shepherd is accepted and recognised.

Even though RRidgebacks have been around for a while, they remain a marvellous case in point. Perhaps because of its origin, the mystic of introducing original African blood still intrigues many RR breeders (I suppose it's the same with other breeds too, GSDs from Germany, Tibetan Sp from the Himalayas etc), and many RR breeders still seek out older SAfrican RR lines from Glenaholm and Pronkberg for outcrossing. This is entirely dependent on what breeds you're talking about. Many breeds may have originated from country X but country Y is recognised as the country of development so depending on your breed you may not always want to go back to the country of origin to get new lines. For example, the dachshund is a German breed but country of development is UK. I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to. Essentially the fundamental breed aspects are still there but the styles are totally different. I guess with RR's the country of development is still country of origin?

But for some reason, many substantial Glenaholm and Pronkberg dogs were never shown to title. Perhaps because of scarcity in competition, the distances involved ... maybe Cdy of SRridge will know the exact reason. But whatever the reason, even as recently as 10 or so years ago ... as can be seen from Harjaselan's incredibly detail research into her own lines ... Titled RRs were coming out of lines without previous titles or with a very small smattering of titles.
In these cases yes i guess situational reasons meant they were unable to show. But i do know of some dogs that are born of show lines, never shown bec breeders feel they are not 100% up to scratch but are used at stud or as brood bitches and can produce stunning progeny who can even be champions!!
But ultimately, as is your point ... the longer a breed is registered, the more established the champion gene pool becomes, the less likely breeders (especially novice breeders who are more eager to establish quickly titled dogs) are inclined to look outside established lines. You'd be foolish to. Why try to reinvent the wheel when it's already been done?

While there is much to be said for sticking with developed lines - why start a new kennel 50yrs behind everyone else, when good lines are available, that shortens period of development ... it's a safer for sure (especially (as you say) with tough competition in many breeds) - some questions do arise:

For the pedigree buyer:

Yes, it's good that pedigree buyers realise that "big bone & big head" is not always the mark of a good specimen ... Unnaturally over-developed skeletal structure, carries many dangers of its own ...

Restriction of gene pool?

Has an alternative scenario developed today? How is the propensity of relying on developed lines affecting the breeds generally? ... Is this actually better for the breed in the longer run? ... Most commonly, the issue of restricted gene pool is raised when discussing this question ... That is one issue. That is why we always look for outcrosses. It's generally safe to go three generations of in-breeding and then outcross. But you can outcross earlier if you wish if there is a bad trait developing in your lines that you want to correct so you outcross to a line that is strong in that area. So long as you are not KENNEL BLIND, do health tests regularly if your breed is affected by a particular disease then you can line breed all you want and it will be safe. For example two things which can plague dachshunds are PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) and IVDD (Invertebral Disc Disease). Researchers in the UK are now through DNA testing trying to identify the gene that causes PRA so that in time to come when we DNA test youngsters you will know for sure if they carry that gene. If so then you discard them from your breeding program no matter how structurally correct they are. Likewise breeders in the USA are funding research by scientists to try and identify the gene that causes IVDD. That means in time to come, as a responsible breeder, if someone comes to me to use my stud dogs i will demand that they show me DNA testing which showed that their bitch is also clear. So the onus lies on breeders to enforce it. With that in mind genetic diseases are minimised, and hopefully eradicated. As for expanding Gene pools, with todays technology in AI (artificial Insemination) expanding ones gene pools is no longer a major worry. Sadly we in Malaysia don't have such facilities (yet).

Show conformation instead of type?

But more that, especially when looking at the way some breeds are going (US lines being a good example) ... Is this propensity to stick with so-called winning/champion lines causing not just health but serious conformation & type issues?

Are we going to see more and more dogs with - high or show stepping gaits, flashy in the extreme ... sloping toplines from withers to croup ... excessive angulation ... new neck and tail sets - just because they win, with perhaps scant regard to type & purpose ... Dog showing initially started not as beauty contests but as the assessment of breeding stock. Like a livestock market, people paraded their prized Foxhound or whatever to show off how good their dog was so when others wanted to breed their females they would come to them. These owners would also brag of the working ability of their dogs as the dogs were used for practical purposes. Despite what anyone wishes to believe - all dog breeds were developed for a specific purpose in mind. Dachshunds were bred with short legs so that they could go to ground and hunt badgers. The reason they have prominent prosternums is to give them ample lung space to be able to go to ground in a burrow 9 inches deep, some 20 or 30 feet down and still breathe. Fox terriers etc were bred with strong tails and were docked shorter so that hunters could use the tails to pull the dogs out of fox dens and burrows without breaking the tail and without having to dig them out if they are stuck! With the tail docked they grab them only by the root which is the strongest part of the tail! But the animal libbers and fancy vets will have you believe it was fashion. YEAH RITE! I digress. So esentially all these show dogs of yore had great working abilities. As time progressed and social classes disappeared the common man on the street could own a pedigree dog and so they became more popular and people started to enter dog shows. The shows changed type in that they took on more of a beauty aspect with confirmation stilll as the underlying deciding factor, but over time this has been further and further diluted through man's desire for fads and fashions. Fad and fashions? Well the American's mating an Irish Setter to an Afghan hound to get the very long coat gene! That is why American Irish setters have beautifully long coats. Some say these are myths bec the AKC will not allow you to cross breed, but these are things people did without making public knowledge so that they could get a beauty aspect accentuated. Everyone will claim they are breeding to type (i.e. what the dog was originally bred to do) but how many Gundogs these days go hunting? How many dachshunds go badger hunting? Etc. etc. I mean in the UK, US, Australia & Europe they have field trials but rarely do you get the hardcore show people going for field trials to prove their beautiful dogs working ability!! So yes we have bastardised some original working traits in breeds for beauty. I guess the trick to not to overdo anything! But sadly some countries have blind disregard for health issues and conformation issues and follow trends and fashions and aloow things such as missing teeth, etc etc plague the breed. Yet dogs with these faults are awarded top awards in the show ring! That is very sad and frightening because in due time you'll have these beautiful coated specimens with very showy attitudes, but who have to have their food blended bec they have no teeth to chew with! So whilst our show dogs might not be bred nowadays to do the exact functions they were originally bred for we still try VERY HARD to make sure that conformation wise they do conform and are structurally and mentally sound. Dogs being assesed in todays dog shows are still being assessed for correct conformation and ability to carry out the work they are done. But being show dogs people tend to close one eye to fashion elements like extremely long coats and so on. But you can't compromise on basic conformation and health!

Show temperament instead of breed temperament?

Perhaps of most interest to me ... is it also bringing "change in breed temperament"? ...

Has this reliance on so-called Champion lines led to dogs being bred with "show temperament" as opposed to typical breed temperament? As most dogs are now nothing more than house pets essentially why not have a show temperament? If by show temperament you mean outgoing, exuberant, love the whole world, scared of no one, bite no one, happy happy happy, then why not?? I want to breed a dog that will end up a model canine citizen. I mean ok lah some people still want to buy dogs to "guard" their house but that is becoming a rarer thing these days right? Most people wise up that an alarm system is far cheaper and easier to maintain. So why not have dogs that don't bite people or shy away?
This development is perhaps not so apparent with naturally gregarious breeds, and may be seen more clearly in some working/guard/herding type breeds ... dogs that show and behave well for the show ring - because they have had their breed type temperament bred out of them.

Are we starting to get breeds with homogenous temperament?
I repeat my point above. Why not?!!!!! They can be better adjusted and more sociable but that doesn't mean you can ever eliminate their natural instinct. My dogs will not attack other dogs and are sociable to other dogs and humans, but if a rat runs past or cicak or bird flies to low they will kill it. Instinct is impossible to breed out of them. And its their instinct that sets them apart from the next breed of dog. My English setter was never trained to set, but watch him in the garden and he will set the birds for you as his ancestors many many moons ago did for huntsmen.
Does the maxim "best to the best" mean the same as it did 20years ago?

Has the maxim, breeding the "best to the best" been reduced to matching dogs from the lines with the most titles ... rather than matching dogs that conform best to type, standard & purpose? ...
Depends who's interpreting it. If your doing it for money then you need all the extra sales factors to help you justify your price. If you're doing it for the love of your breed and for the quest of producing quality stock that are an imporvement of the last generation then best to best takes on a whole new meaning where titles fade away into oblivion. But to reach that stage you need to really know what you doing or atleast have a 80% idea of what you're doing. I am very fortunate in that i have a poll of very close friends in my selected breed, who are all longtime established breeders to who i turn to for help and advice. If i want to do a mating i will plan out what i want to do and ask them for their opinion. Then looking at pictures (or knowing the dogs) looking at pedigrees to see the ancestors, they will ask me why i decided and give me their opinion of what i could "hope" to expect! So in that i get the input of people familiar with my lines and longer in this game than me who will give me sound advice or who act as great sounding boards for me when i have something planned in my head. I never believe in seeking one single opinion as i find a selection of views from well ground breeders in you chosen breed can give you varying advice (as this is all subjective) and then you decide what course you want to ultimately take. I never believe i know it all and i always look to those who've been doing ti longer than me as that is where i gain knowledge! I was told one thing by one of my early doggy mentors - "keep your mouth shut and your ears open. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a good reason!" Ofcourse she meant ask questions by all means but don't open your mouth and think you know a lot if you actually don't. Nothing wrong asking as you have everything to gain when given the answer.
And if so - is this what breeders truly believe is best for the breed? - Or is winning & money (with the event of sponsorship) now the overriding factor.

While time cannot be turned back - sponsorship & money shows are here to stay ... Would breeds not benefit from knowledgeable "mavericks" who would dare more ... and bring moderation back into play?
Moderation is a subjective word. What is moderation to you may not be for me. I might argue that so what if they have stylish sloping toplines so long as they are healthy? And you could come back and say but the original dogs didn't have that and then it's your opinion against mine!! Why turn back the clock? Depending on what breed you're in you may have come a long way as far as health and such things are concerned so why go backwards! But i'd like to go back to get frozen semen from some great dogs who were way ahead of their time. Had we managed to store their semen and use it now things might be very different!
While many in this Forum are not breeders, a discussion on these issues may still be of interest to some ... and your thoughts will be appreciated.

Cheers

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 21, 2004, 1:20 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 21, 2004, 2:11 AM

Post #19 of 161 (6685 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Fast lar ... your reply ...

If I understand your post correctly ... what you say may be summarised as follows:

(a) Let's not get hooked up on trying to turn the clock back to the days when breeding was primarily for utility & purpose (breeding stock purpose) ... Times have changed and so has the purpose & ultimate aim for dog breeding ... Focus today (particularly in pedigree conformation dogs) is not so much to breed dogs for their "original" purpose ... but for validation in a show ring.

Whether that is right or wrong is not so much the question but an acceptance of the realities of dog breeding in the 21st Century.

(b) While you accept that breeding for purpose is still supposed to be the rally cry, in truth, modern dogs will not or for that matter, have opportunity, to be tested as their forefathers would have ... and that again is reflective of how the world has changed from when the first Labrador was first conceived ...

But as long as basic conformation/standard and health are maintained, you personally have no objection to the evolution that has taken place.

Similarly with "fad & fashion" ... and ... "show temperament" - as long as sound conformation, structure & health are not compromised, you also have no strong objection and will flow with the changes that have come about over time ... leaving plenty of room for personal preference and choice to breeders and their breeding.

Ok - can understand what you are saying ... but for myself - am not so sure about the show temperament bit ... Certainly as you say, there is no harm with having dogs with good steady temperament and personalities ... happy dogs ...

Just that it would be a little sad to see a RR without that sense of "aloofness" ... that is such a hallmark of the breed ... Some of the RRs we saw at the Brisbane Royal in August, were more like Labs in temperament than RRs ... *sigh* ... But then - as you say, RRs no longer hunt in the savannah ... and maybe it's best they also become less aloof and blend more easily into a family with 2.3 children & 1.2 cars ... Tongue

" ... I am very fortunate in that i have ... very close friends in my selected breed, who are all longtime established breeders to who i turn to for help and advice ... So in that i get the input of people familiar with my lines ... who will give me sound advice ... I never believe in seeking one single opinion as i find a selection of views from well ground breeders in you chosen breed can give you varying advice ... "keep your mouth shut and your ears open. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a good reason!" ..."

Yes ... having a close support group is very important. Having friends with experience & knowledge, who are prepared to listen with an open mind and then ready to share honest opinion is of immeasurable benefit ... And I guess, this applies to most human endeavours and not just dog breeding ...

Cheers

" ... But sadly some countries have blind disregard for health issues and conformation issues and follow trends and fashions and allow things such as missing teeth, etc etc plague the breed. Yet dogs with these faults are awarded top awards in the show ring! That is very sad and frightening because in due time you'll have these beautiful coated specimens with very showy attitudes, but who have to have their food blended bec they have no teeth to chew with! ..."

PS ... Interesting ... which country are you referring to? ... And - is it that bad?


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 21, 2004, 2:15 AM)


skipper
Novice

Oct 21, 2004, 8:36 PM

Post #20 of 161 (6660 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

“Champion Line and Champion Line may never produce Champion but Non Champion Line and Non Champion Line can never produce Champion”

Honestly, in my opinion, I feel that statement cannot be taken as a gospel truth. I have the privilege to know many established breeders locally and aboard and they will never agreed to that statement. Good established breeder regardless what breeds they keep, when comes to breeding good dogs they have one thing in mind – TYPE!!! It is only correct to breed type to type. Breeding type comes above everything else regardless if the animals are titled or not. What is type? Type consists of the looks, the overall balance and the characteristic according to the country(s) and/or the continent of the breed standard. Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second.

A champion dog today in Malaysia might not become a champion in another country. So if one were to breed titles to titles I think he/she has missed the point of breeding.

“TYPE to TYPE produces TYPE just like pariah to pariah produces pariah”


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 21, 2004, 11:26 PM

Post #21 of 161 (6641 views)
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Re: [skipper] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Agree with what you have posted ...

But there is one part of your posting that is most interesting ... where you say: ..." ... Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second ..."

If by "soundness" you mean the 'overall health, physical & genetic soundness' of the dog ... as in good sound skeletal, physical development & structure, good genetic background with minimal or absent genetically passed defects etc ... then I am wondering - why would an experienced & reputable breeder place "soundness" second to "type" ... and not at least on par with "type" ...

Cheers


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 1:04 AM

Post #22 of 161 (6627 views)
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Re: [skipper] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Skipper

Wah where have you been hiding?? Totally agree with your post!!! One of the basic fundamentals! Type is far more important than soundness!!!

Welcome and look forward to more posts from you! Sly

LCK Cool


In Reply To
“Champion Line and Champion Line may never produce Champion but Non Champion Line and Non Champion Line can never produce Champion”

Honestly, in my opinion, I feel that statement cannot be taken as a gospel truth. I have the privilege to know many established breeders locally and aboard and they will never agreed to that statement. Good established breeder regardless what breeds they keep, when comes to breeding good dogs they have one thing in mind – TYPE!!! It is only correct to breed type to type. Breeding type comes above everything else regardless if the animals are titled or not. What is type? Type consists of the looks, the overall balance and the characteristic according to the country(s) and/or the continent of the breed standard. Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second.

A champion dog today in Malaysia might not become a champion in another country. So if one were to breed titles to titles I think he/she has missed the point of breeding.

“TYPE to TYPE produces TYPE just like pariah to pariah produces pariah”

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 1:18 AM

Post #23 of 161 (6625 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Soundness is something visible, so genetic soundness can never ever be know by just looking at a dog. Also it is not common to hear people say the pedigree is genetically sound. Maybe in time to come with all the DNA testing available we will be in a position to say the pedigree is genetically sound! Wink

But yes, to me soundness refers to overall good construction, good movement etc. Why breeders place type over soundness is simply because what distinguishes any breed from another is type. Type is of paramount importance as it sets it apart from the next breed of dog. As Skipper says, a pariah can also be sound (in fact you watch many of them and bec they roam the streets and are in good muscular condition they are VERY sound) so that is why you'd never place soundness on par with type, as soundness doesn't distinguish one breed from another! Sly

If i'm judging Dachshunds and someone comes in with a dachshund cross that is very sound, do i place that an equal first with the purebred dachshund that is more characteristic (typey) of its breed than the crossbreed??? Both are dogs and the cross bred is more sound, but i'm judging dachsunds and so i judge to type and put up the animal that is the best representative of the breed, carrying as much of the breed characteristics as it is supposed to. Would be similar to a RR with a ridge and one born without.

Would you agree Skipper?

LCK
Cool


In Reply To
Hi ...

Agree with what you have posted ...

But there is one part of your posting that is most interesting ... where you say: ..." ... Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second ..."

If by "soundness" you mean the 'overall health, physical & genetic soundness' of the dog ... as in good sound skeletal, physical development & structure, good genetic background with minimal or absent genetically passed defects etc ... then I am wondering - why would an experienced & reputable breeder place "soundness" second to "type" ... and not at least on par with "type" ...

Cheers

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


skipper
Novice

Oct 22, 2004, 1:20 AM

Post #24 of 161 (6622 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ahya surchin, me no Champion breeder...Lol, don't lah ask more questions, no time to answer lah. Ok will try to respond sometime tomorrow. Please give your Seng Seng a pat for me. Take care very busssy got to dash.

Cheers.


skipper
Novice

Oct 22, 2004, 1:34 AM

Post #25 of 161 (6620 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello LCK, I was about to log off and you came in. Apa lah!! Yes agreeeee, At least this discuss is more sound than the previous one...lol. Sometime I wonder if you really need to breed such a good type to win...take a look at PSR. She's sound but fugly...yak! Ok got to go now talk soon. Cheers.


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 1:43 AM

Post #26 of 161 (3483 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Ok - can understand what you are saying ... but for myself - am not so sure about the show temperament bit ... Certainly as you say, there is no harm with having dogs with good steady temperament and personalities ... happy dogs ...

Just that it would be a little sad to see a RR without that sense of "aloofness" ... that is such a hallmark of the breed ... Some of the RRs we saw at the Brisbane Royal in August, were more like Labs in temperament than RRs ... *sigh* ... But then - as you say, RRs no longer hunt in the savannah ... and maybe it's best they also become less aloof and blend more easily into a family with 2.3 children & 1.2 cars ... Tongue

Dachshunds are also supposed to be aloof but sadly aloofness in the unscrupulous hands of backyard breeders turns into agression and then people end up labeling breeds as dangerous and classifying dogs are dangerous and lethal. So based on that i'd stilll advocate breeding happy happy temperaments that love everyone! Perhaps then we wouldn't have the negative image of breeds such as Rottweilers, etc.


" ... But sadly some countries have blind disregard for health issues and conformation issues and follow trends and fashions and allow things such as missing teeth, etc etc plague the breed. Yet dogs with these faults are awarded top awards in the show ring! That is very sad and frightening because in due time you'll have these beautiful coated specimens with very showy attitudes, but who have to have their food blended bec they have no teeth to chew with! ..."

PS ... Interesting ... which country are you referring to? ... And - is it that bad? There is an expression known as the ALL AMERICAN SHOW DOG. Extremely long coat touching the ground (if a coated breed), sloping topline, wagging tail, ultra showman, 4 legs!!! Ofcourse before certain quarters start to jump, i must say that it's not in all the breeds but it has been known that some breeds they don't even bother if the dog has full dentition or a correct bite so long as it has the above criteria. Tongue

Ofcourse it's bad bec eventually you'll get dogs with no teeth on liquid diets!!! It has also been known that some of them put in neuticles for dogs who are monorchids. What happens is that you fool yourself and end up with dogs with all manner of health problems. Say all this has been done to a dog, sadly those other breeders who use this dog at stud will be unaware of these problems and end up breeding these problems making it worse as you've passed it one to another generation!!

LCK Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 9:15 AM

Post #27 of 161 (3460 views)
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Re: [LCK, skipper] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok ... see what you guys mean by "type" taking priority over "soundness" ...

Yes, a ridgless RR can be as sound as the best ridged RR ... but would not be "typical" or "type" of the RR breed.

Essentially ... "soundness" refers to whether a dog is physically sound (as in sound in construction, musculature, movement etc) ... And a dog can be sound but not necessary be of the "type" according to the standards for that breed.

Therefore, in pedigree & pedigree breeding, where each breed as a particular "standard" - "type" (meaning conformation as to standard) must come first and "soundness" follows next. This is not to mean that "soundness" is not important, just that "type" must come first!

Therefore a good specimen will be (a) first: of the correct type for that breed ... and then (b) second: Sound in construction, musculature, movement etc ... And good breeding must take that into account.



" ... Dachshunds are also supposed to be aloof but sadly aloofness in the unscrupulous hands of backyard breeders turns into agression and then people end up labeling breeds as dangerous and classifying dogs are dangerous and lethal. So based on that i'd stilll advocate breeding happy happy temperaments that love everyone! Perhaps then we wouldn't have the negative image of breeds such as Rottweilers, etc. ..."

Question: But wouldn't changing original temperament be detracting from "type" for that breed?



" ... There is an expression known as the ALL AMERICAN SHOW DOG. Extremely long coat touching the ground (if a coated breed), sloping topline, wagging tail, ultra showman, 4 legs!!! Of course before certain quarters start to jump, i must say that it's not in all the breeds but it has been known that some breeds they don't even bother if the dog has full dentition or a correct bite so long as it has the above criteria ..."

Question: In such cases ... wouldn't the judges have anything to say? ... Aren't judges also equally (or at least partially) responsible for degradation of the breed?



Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 9:57 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 9:19 AM

Post #28 of 161 (3459 views)
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post deleted [In reply to] Can't Post

*** deleted ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 9:55 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 9:39 AM

Post #29 of 161 (3458 views)
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Re: [LCK, skipper] ... What if??? [In reply to] Can't Post

A question to both of you ... Smile ...

If a novice were to approach you ... and express desire to breed pedigrees ... What advice would you give?

To make the question & answers more interesting, we will assume the following:

(a) The person is in Malaysia with reasonable source of funding, adequate facilities & space.

(b) The person has reasonable knowledge of the breed and breed standard, including appreciation of breed problems.

(c) The person has basic understanding of breeding principles.

Given the above, what kind of practical and pragmatic advice or suggestions would you give to a person earnestly wishing to start breeding pedigrees in a reasonably serious manner?

For example:
  • What are the key issues to keep in mind? ... What are the common pitfalls to avoid? ...
  • What are the basic criteria for & precautions to take, when selecting foundation stock? Should they start with a sire & dam? Or just a sire or dam? ... If so why?
  • What should a novice breeder be striving for in the first 3 or 5 years?

    ... etc
Thanks

P.S. ... Skipper - don't say busssssy okay ... let us know your thoughts too ... Tongue


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 9:49 AM)


TOPDOG
ALPHA


Oct 22, 2004, 5:36 PM

Post #30 of 161 (3441 views)
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Re: [ALL] [In reply to] Can't Post

After following the various 'threads' in this section, I must say that all of you involved are highly experienced in these kind of dogs and I have no doubts that if I wanted a top quality GR, I would get one either from the few of you.

Forgive me for interfering but this debate is going nowhere as each one you trade blows and no one is willing to back down. Take a breather and why not let the matter rest once and for all? All it takes is just one of u to stop replying and the others will stop too. What has happened has happened and the past is past.

Why not just let it be? Live and let live dudes!
Dont see eye to eye, nvm lor, just avoid each other and talk less lor.

Hope you all give my postings some thought la. Blush
---------------------------------
ROMEOW!!!!!!!!!!


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 7:35 PM

Post #31 of 161 (3424 views)
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Re: [TOPDOG] ... A discussion ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello ... appreciate your good intentions ...Smile... but perhaps, you might be mistaken.

The posts exchanged between LCK, skipper and myself are not antagonistic, abusive or rude ... whether to the other or to anyone else ... (*whisper* ... well, we take potshots every now and again - but that's okay too ...Tongue)

Of course, we challenge & question each other's ideas & view points ... And for sure we seek clarifications & ask questions ... that is to be expected & normal in any worthwhile discussion ... BUT what is equally important is that, the discourse/dialogue is being conducted in a healthy and progressive manner ...

Good points where made - are accepted. Concession and agreement when due - are given.

Differences in opinion, when based on good & sound reasoning - are respected ... welcome even.

So, what you see happening here is discussion - an exchange and exploration of ideas & view points ... Where no one is required to submit just because the other says so ... but also ... no one feels a need to defend a bad or incorrect position to the death - just for fear of being wrong ...

Some of the points and issues raised may be of interest to those interested in breeding ...

Feel free to participate ... Smile ... join in with your views & questions ...

Cheers

P.S. ... Errr ... And no, I don't sell GRs ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 8:07 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 7:48 PM

Post #32 of 161 (3420 views)
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Re: [TOPDOG] [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi fren

This is what we call a healthy discussion. Note the lack of outright abuse or name calling or threats of turning up at anyones house to "sort them out." I guess it is a little different to the usual threads of "who owns a ECS? Come and post their name and funny story of what they did!" So i understand why you might be asking us to live and let live, but don't worry dude we're just fine. Join us - feel free to participate. No one will abuse you or ridicule or say you're stupid. In fact stupid people are the ones that never ask anything and learn nothing. Laugh

LCK Cool


P.s. I DEFINITELY do NOT own a GR. I own a far more intelligent and superior breed! LOL They are called Lap Cheong Kau (LCK)



In Reply To
After following the various 'threads' in this section, I must say that all of you involved are highly experienced in these kind of dogs and I have no doubts that if I wanted a top quality GR, I would get one either from the few of you.

Forgive me for interfering but this debate is going nowhere as each one you trade blows and no one is willing to back down. Take a breather and why not let the matter rest once and for all? All it takes is just one of u to stop replying and the others will stop too. What has happened has happened and the past is past.

Why not just let it be? Live and let live dudes!
Dont see eye to eye, nvm lor, just avoid each other and talk less lor.

Hope you all give my postings some thought la. Blush

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 22, 2004, 7:50 PM)


TOPDOG
ALPHA


Oct 22, 2004, 8:00 PM

Post #33 of 161 (3416 views)
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Re: [ALL] [In reply to] Can't Post

oh oh1 I think I posted in the wrong thread la. forgive me hehehe LaughLaughLaugh

HERO TRY HERO DIE Unsure
---------------------------------
ROMEOW!!!!!!!!!!


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 8:04 PM

Post #34 of 161 (3414 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

 


" ... Dachshunds are also supposed to be aloof but sadly aloofness in the unscrupulous hands of backyard breeders turns into agression and then people end up labeling breeds as dangerous and classifying dogs are dangerous and lethal. So based on that i'd stilll advocate breeding happy happy temperaments that love everyone! Perhaps then we wouldn't have the negative image of breeds such as Rottweilers, etc. ..."

Question: But wouldn't changing original temperament be detracting from "type" for that breed?
Type doesn't include an assessment of temperament. That is a separate issue all together and would be a secondary assessment. BUT if i saw a very typey dog that had a bad temperament or temperament not typical of its breed then i wouldn't want to use it in my breeding program or would not award it top awards, IF i was a judge. But by bad temperament i mean an extremely shy or agressive temperament. That would be the type of temperament that i would find supect and not want. Not for example a guard dog being overly friendly. To me that's perfectly acceptable. It WAS bred for guarding, but is now someone's beloved pet and show dog. If it was supposed to eat me in the ring then how can i as a judge, judge this dog?


" ... There is an expression known as the ALL AMERICAN SHOW DOG. Extremely long coat touching the ground (if a coated breed), sloping topline, wagging tail, ultra showman, 4 legs!!! Of course before certain quarters start to jump, i must say that it's not in all the breeds but it has been known that some breeds they don't even bother if the dog has full dentition or a correct bite so long as it has the above criteria ..."

Question: In such cases ... wouldn't the judges have anything to say? ... Aren't judges also equally (or at least partially) responsible for degradation of the breed? Absolutely right but these judges are breeders, exhibitors themselves and as such these things are of minimal importance and has become rife in the breed so look past these points as just about every dog might have a bad bite! They are all as bad as the other! So do you withold the entire breed? Well you'll never get an entry after that so they play ball!



Cheers

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 9:23 PM

Post #35 of 161 (3398 views)
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Re: [TOPDOG] [In reply to] Can't Post

Aiyah - i don't think you were in the wrong thread lah. Tongue Don't be scared. I promise we won't come to your house. Pirate Please feel free to participate in this thread if it interests you. Unsure

LCK Cool


In Reply To
oh oh1 I think I posted in the wrong thread la. forgive me hehehe LaughLaughLaugh

HERO TRY HERO DIE Unsure

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 9:23 PM

Post #36 of 161 (3398 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

ok...

my 1.9 cents worth....

i'm new in the so called 'dog world' and totally a newbie in the breeding, showing and etc.....

BUT i have to agree with Surch that Type and Soundness my be at least on par if not the latter come first.

Surch, LCK, Skipper : a quick one....what is/are the major distingusher(s) from one breed to another ? lets take GSD as an example...what LEFT in the GSD if they lost their natural drives ? ok, don use the word 'drive' too easy to get people confuse...let replace it with may be 'aloofness', 'suspicions' (not fear of people ok). I always believe a good and correct Type/Soundness of a GSD will nail the bad guys down in no time and will behave like a lab if not gr in the house with baby.

What makes a GSD stand up from the other breeds that can do the protection, guarding or whatsoever ? Answer is : AGILE - a GSD is not extreme in prey if compare to a lab, and fight/defend if compare to a rott and hunt/pack if compare to other cattle dog, BUT a GSD is above average of anything if not everything.

A GSD that without the 'aloofness'/drives is no longer a gsd.

Surch : i like the statement u quoted in ur post read like 'RR with the temperement of lab' ROTFLOL.Tongue Can a lab or labs hunt lion ah ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 22, 2004, 9:31 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 9:33 PM

Post #37 of 161 (3389 views)
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Quote
I DEFINITELY do NOT own a GR. I own a far more intelligent and superior breed! LOL They are called Lap Cheong Kau (LCK)



Guess this statement is a bit on the extreme end.....don't you think so ?Tongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 9:35 PM

Post #38 of 161 (3388 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] ... What if??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surch,

This is the good one....

LCK : Your experience and thoughts regarding this will very well be appreciated.


In Reply To
A question to both of you ... Smile ...

If a novice were to approach you ... and express desire to breed pedigrees ... What advice would you give?

To make the question & answers more interesting, we will assume the following:

(a) The person is in Malaysia with reasonable source of funding, adequate facilities & space.

(b) The person has reasonable knowledge of the breed and breed standard, including appreciation of breed problems.

(c) The person has basic understanding of breeding principles.

Given the above, what kind of practical and pragmatic advice or suggestions would you give to a person earnestly wishing to start breeding pedigrees in a reasonably serious manner?

For example:
  • What are the key issues to keep in mind? ... What are the common pitfalls to avoid? ...
  • What are the basic criteria for & precautions to take, when selecting foundation stock? Should they start with a sire & dam? Or just a sire or dam? ... If so why?
  • What should a novice breeder be striving for in the first 3 or 5 years?

    ... etc
Thanks

P.S. ... Skipper - don't say busssssy okay ... let us know your thoughts too ... Tongue


Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 9:36 PM

Post #39 of 161 (3388 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] ... What if??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aiyoh - email requires such a detailed answer!!! Wait for me to write my book lah the ZEN ART OF DOG BREEDING. Will reply when i have a bit more time ok! Hopefully Skipper will post a suitable reply!

LCK Cool


In Reply To
A question to both of you ... Smile ...

If a novice were to approach you ... and express desire to breed pedigrees ... What advice would you give?

To make the question & answers more interesting, we will assume the following:

(a) The person is in Malaysia with reasonable source of funding, adequate facilities & space.

(b) The person has reasonable knowledge of the breed and breed standard, including appreciation of breed problems.

(c) The person has basic understanding of breeding principles.

Given the above, what kind of practical and pragmatic advice or suggestions would you give to a person earnestly wishing to start breeding pedigrees in a reasonably serious manner?

For example:
  • What are the key issues to keep in mind? ... What are the common pitfalls to avoid? ...
  • What are the basic criteria for & precautions to take, when selecting foundation stock? Should they start with a sire & dam? Or just a sire or dam? ... If so why?
  • What should a novice breeder be striving for in the first 3 or 5 years?

    ... etc
Thanks

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 10:00 PM

Post #40 of 161 (3379 views)
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Re: [boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey boon

In a hurry.

Still don't change my stand on type and soundness. Both essential traits in assessing a show dog, but type ALWAYS comes first. If that is not fixed in a judge or breeders mind then they are not worth thier salt. You must learn what the words type and soundness mean in canine terminology and not just the English venacular as that is where your confusion currently arises. English words in dog terms mean very different things.

The GSD standard doesn't call for the dog to be aloof. I think you're getting mixed up with words. Aloofness allows an Afghan, RR & Dachshund to back off from a stranger (judge) if approached by them. A judge wouldn't penalise this behaviour in these breeds as they are supposed to be aloof. But if a GSD was aloof then a judge SHOULD penalise them as the GSD is supposed to be a guard dog and hence fearless of a stranger. A good GSD with good guarding instincts shouldn't attack the judge either as it is supposed to only act like that on command from the owner. Meaning it should be good with visitors to the house, kids, etc etc so long as the woner is present and allows the strangers to come in. But if a burglar entered the house uninvited then one would expect the GSD to do it's guarding job and attack the person. Get it?

This all becomes a personal preference i guess because i know many people who own GSD's bec they love the breed but let them sleep inside their bedrooms at night bec they didn't buy the dog as a guard and pet, but as a pet only so are not interested if the dog is a good guard dog or not! To them so long as it is a GSD they are not intrested in its natural guarding instincts detemining if it is a good GSD. If you were seriously exhibiting GSD's in Germany for example then it would require temperament and guarding tests like Schutzund (spelling?) which do require the dog to display their guarding instincts ON COMMAND.

I doubt Yeoh's RR's will ever keep lions in a corner waiting for the hunter to come shoot the lion, nor will his Lab ever go to retrieve ducks from a lake shot down by a hunter, nor will any show Beagle be part of a hunt pack, but does it mean they are any less a good representative of the breed? Not in my mind. I didn't get involved in Dachshunds bec i wanted to hunt badgers so it doesn't worry me if they don't! This starts a whole different topic about breed purpose VS show purpose. That is why in the UK etc people who hunt with their cockers don't bother to enter conformation dog shows as their hunting dogs are not bought and bred by them to be show dogs!!! Yes i know it can sound confusuing and contradicting but both dogs, although the same breed are being bred and used for entirely DIFFERENT purposes! This is a great debate actually where show people have over time often departed from the original reason the breed was developed. They have evovled for different purposes!

Can't list the distinguising breed features of each and every dog breed i'm afraid, but if you got hold of the breed standards of each and every breed, under characteristics it will very clearly tell you what distinguishes a GSD from a GR from a RR from a Pekingese.

Hope this helps.

LCK Cool



In Reply To
ok...

my 1.9 cents worth....

i'm new in the so called 'dog world' and totally a newbie in the breeding, showing and etc.....

BUT i have to agree with Surch that Type and Soundness my be at least on par if not the latter come first.

Surch, LCK, Skipper : a quick one....what is/are the major distingusher(s) from one breed to another ? lets take GSD as an example...what LEFT in the GSD if they lost their natural drives ? ok, don use the word 'drive' too easy to get people confuse...let replace it with may be 'aloofness', 'suspicions' (not fear of people ok). I always believe a good and correct Type/Soundness of a GSD will nail the bad guys down in no time and will behave like a lab if not gr in the house with baby.

What makes a GSD stand up from the other breeds that can do the protection, guarding or whatsoever ? Answer is : AGILE - a GSD is not extreme in prey if compare to a lab, and fight/defend if compare to a rott and hunt/pack if compare to other cattle dog, BUT a GSD is above average of anything if not everything.

A GSD that without the 'aloofness'/drives is no longer a gsd.

Surch : i like the statement u quoted in ur post read like 'RR with the temperement of lab' ROTFLOL.Tongue Can a lab or labs hunt lion ah ?

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 10:26 PM

Post #41 of 161 (3375 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Pirate sh!t...took me awhile to reply u and outof sudden the page get lost........sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 10:49 PM

Post #42 of 161 (3368 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

ok here come another...hope this time will not disappear out of sudden by itself....stupid IE.Mad

ok i have to admit that the terms in use...so guess better i use back the term that are commonly use in working gsd world. Supicions and scare/nervy/fear of people are from both extreme end.........

The SV type of show (German) their Schutzhund title for a show line dog is totally difference from the working line gsd trial. In german, show GSD must get their title, at least schh I, BST (breed survey or kurong (spelling)) before they can breed the dog and get the pups registered. The trial for a show GSD are nothing more than a 'GAME' to the dogs. the helpers or the so called bad guys are their buddy on the other end....they train the dog daily, showing/telling the dogs that it will be just fine if u bite, won't hurt you, take the bite from me and such.......on the other side of the breed, the working GSD trial, the helpers are totally a stranger to the dog, and will push the dog to the max (depend on the helper's quality lol :) )

Even those show GSD get their title on the local club trial or district trial....they will not make their way to the region and national and of coz the ultimate one, WUSV. Even some 1 in a million show dog can make it, but will not do good in the national level.


In Reply To
This all becomes a personal preference i guess because i know many people who own GSD's bec they love the breed but let them sleep inside their bedrooms at night bec they didn't buy the dog as a guard and pet, but as a pet only so are not interested if the dog is a good guard dog or not! To them so long as it is a GSD they are not intrested in its natural guarding instincts detemining if it is a good GSD. Guess the quote/statement from the father of the GSD says it all. From the book of GSD in Word and PIcture by Max v Stephanitz
Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)



as of this one........CrazyCrazyCrazy will leave it to the owner to reply.


Quote
I doubt Yeoh's RR's will ever keep lions in a corner waiting for the hunter to come shoot the lion, nor will his Lab ever go to retrieve ducks from a lake shot down by a hunter, nor will any show Beagle be part of a hunt pack, but does it mean they are any less a good representative of the breed?






In Reply To
This starts a whole different topic about breed purpose VS show purpose. That is why in the UK etc people who hunt with their cockers don't bother to enter conformation dog shows as their hunting dogs are not bought and bred by them to be show dogs!!! The same thing in GSD, the show and the working one.....when i say working GSD, i do mean those come from the pure working line originated from German, Czech, East German -DDR (once the communist regime) and may be belgium....(actually belgium lines are from German, but which line that is not originated from the origin country of the animal call German Shepherd. kind of contracditing also :)



As of the country u mentioned that their dogs need to get the food blended before feeding....i do know that they crossed the Irish Setter with a GR for color. But the darker color dogs are not desirable in Down Under.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 22, 2004, 10:54 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 11:07 PM

Post #43 of 161 (3359 views)
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Re: [LCK, boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...



Boon

In my post ... I equated the definition of "type" to include "temperament" ...

And LCK corrected me by posting that where breeding for dog conformation showing (like the ones held by MKA) is concerned ... the word "type" refers ONLY to the physical characteristics of a breed that distinguishes it from other breeds and DOES NOT include reference to "temperament" ...

And as such, when a breeder breeds for dog conformation shows (as opposed to breeding for other purposes such as field trials etc) ... then "TYPE" remains the first criteria (because that is what a judge in a conformation show will be looking at first and foremost) ...

This is not to say that "temperament & soundness" are not important ... just that they come after "type" in order of priority ...



LCK

Hmmm ... I think I got that right ... TongueShocked ...



Now ... going to find padang with lions for the RRs ... You think Sungei Besi there got ar?

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 11:13 PM)


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 22, 2004, 11:32 PM

Post #44 of 161 (3350 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilesorry for interrupting, uncle, just a short question.
I find some breeds, although subscribed to the breed standard differ SLIGHTLY in their appearance. So is it correct to say that there are different 'type's even though they are of the same breed???

For eg. homosapiens...ur type BIG STRONG and FRIENDLY vs our friend(AT) SKINNY, SOFTY.......still the same breed but just different type.....Correct ah?

your 50cents pls.Tongue


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 11:50 PM

Post #45 of 161 (3343 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

But...a dog, a breed to me is the package, type with or without appropriate temperement of the said breed is equally important. But sometime in reality....beauty pageant and olympic game are of 2 different requirement and field. So u can't expect the Miss Malaysia XYZ to win gold medal in the olympic games.

Fortunately, this is possible for a dog that has beauty and mind in one. The RR that will go out and hunt for Chow Chow if not lion lol and behave like a lab in the house. A GSD that will kills chicken on the street and behave like a gr in the house. this is all possible...... is just a matter of what do u want to do with your dog and where to find them..........

From the Down Under, There is a kennel that have 5 dual champions (if i remember correctly) that doing 'terribly good' in the ring and field. This is where the ultimate breeding goal come into place, the beauty and mind in one living creature.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 22, 2004, 11:52 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 23, 2004, 12:23 AM

Post #46 of 161 (3336 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" [In reply to] Can't Post

Uncle Derek

You make me laugh as always!!! The quiet joker! Yes you're absolutely right. Even within a breed you will get distinct types or certain specific characteristics that can tell one kennel apart from another. For example in Australia you can see some LCK's in the ring and just by looking at the dog you can tell which kennel they come from as they carry certain hallmark traits of that bloodline! Essentially this is just a slight modification or difference from the basic breed type which still requires breed XYZ to have characteristics ABC! These tend to be more for the trained eye that is familiar with stock from that kennel and normally those kennels/bloodlines have been around for quite a while!

In my personal breeding progam my lines are based on 3 established kennels/bloodlines , two of which are inter-related and one which is quite an outcross. So when breeding i am getting a nice blend of all three kennels with some carrying more traits to one line and some towards another but some with a nice mix! One good example of a nice mix is Petra - Asian, Malaysian & Australian Ch. Hacienda Ewe Lil Beauty who is a mix of the 3 lines but cannot be singly identified as being typey to one particular line. That is why she appeals to a wide array of judges as she is a lovely blend. And believe it or not she is still line bred!

Type can ever differ from country to country - American dachs are very different to European, to UK and to Australasian dachs! That's what makes breeding exciting when you try to get the best of each world! But you must know what you're combining or you can end up with rojak and more problems than you can handle and total loss of all types!!!

LCK Cool


P.s. you owe me RM1,000. It's fifty cents per letter lah for my advice!! LOL

In Reply To
Smilesorry for interrupting, uncle, just a short question.
I find some breeds, although subscribed to the breed standard differ SLIGHTLY in their appearance. So is it correct to say that there are different 'type's even though they are of the same breed???

For eg. homosapiens...ur type BIG STRONG and FRIENDLY vs our friend(AT) SKINNY, SOFTY.......still the same breed but just different type.....Correct ah?

your 50cents pls.Tongue

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 23, 2004, 12:28 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 23, 2004, 1:57 AM

Post #47 of 161 (3319 views)
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Re: [boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Aaah Boon ... Tongue ...

True true ... There is a kennel in Perth with a number of Dual Retriever Champions ... but if I am not mistaken, even that Kennel has not had a dual champion for some time now ... The last dual champion was born in 1993 and passed away in 2001.

The breeder is still competing in both trials & at conformation shows, but (as best I know) with different dogs.

Which perhaps goes to show that today ... show dogs and trial dogs (even if supposedly to be of the same breed) are now very different from each other ... and the term "purpose" no longer hold the same meaning for both ... It's very hard to find a major show winning Labrador also winning retriever trials ...

Hence LCK's posting " ... Yes i know it can sound confusuing and contradicting but both dogs, although the same breed are being bred and used for entirely DIFFERENT purposes! This is a great debate actually where show people have over time often departed from the original reason the breed was developed. They have evovled for different purposes! ..."

By and large today, (as you will know from your own experience) a person wishing to purchase a pedigree Lab (or GSD even) has a choice, from show or field/working lines ... While it may be possible (anything is possible) it will be very difficumt to find a dog that excels in both ...

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 23, 2004, 1:58 AM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 23, 2004, 2:02 AM

Post #48 of 161 (3314 views)
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Re: [LCK,surchinmy,All] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's BlushI do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed.

This is entirely dependent on what breeds you're talking about. Many breeds may have originated from country X but country Y is recognised as the country of development so depending on your breed you may not always want to go back to the country of origin to get new lines. For example, the dachshund is a German breed but country of development is UK. I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to. Essentially the fundamental breed aspects are still there but the styles are totally different. I guess with RR's the country of development is still country of origin?



Just wondering...say (for example) the german shepherd was developed in so many different countries ie. czech,slovakia & UK n they have their own "types" where they are physically different (not just show and working,i mean like the working line czech,slovak & german dogs look different physically) .The germans (though the breed has been developed there as well) think that the czech dogs are ugly(not all,but u get my drift) & The slovaks may think the german GSD is not that attractive. I highly doubt the czechs would want to include a german GSD into their breeding programme and vice versa. so u said, "I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to" Is this just your personal preference? Because i think the germans would never see themselves getting a dachshund from the UK because of the different "type" it has developed into in the UK. Also is there an official statement saying that country x is the country of origin and country y is country of developement or is this something "everyone knows" when you get into the breed?



Are we starting to get breeds with homogenous temperament?
I repeat my point above. Why not?!!!!! They can be better adjusted and more sociable but that doesn't mean you can ever eliminate their natural instinct. My dogs will not attack other dogs and are sociable to other dogs and humans, but if a rat runs past or cicak or bird flies to low they will kill it. Instinct is impossible to breed out of them. And its their instinct that sets them apart from the next breed of dog. My English setter was never trained to set, but watch him in the garden and he will set the birds for you as his ancestors many many moons ago did for huntsmen.



As you say instincts which sets different breeds apart are impossible to breed out of them,how is it that there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat. Although i agree with you,that these days there is not much of a need for a dog to be used for its original purpose(in this case,defending & protecting),but isn't the insticnt of a rott to protect and defend? and isn't it impossible to breed instincts out of a breed? At the moment the only thing i can think of is that like all the other breeds,the requirements(solid nerves,prey drive,civility,etc) for this kind of work has been bred out of them as there is no need for them any more.And this has negated the "instinct" as for a dog to defend and protect he needs solid nerves,defence drive,fight drive etc. With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad,that this "instinct" of the rotts has dissapeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait?





Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog,why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems? Crazy What I am trying to say here is, why are traits that cause health problems considered beautiful/attractive? In the earlier post, it was said that dogs bred for show are "beautful" and that some breeders go to the extreme and this causes health problems. But in the case of the bulldog..isn't it the case of what is considered beautiful for the bulldog and then ppl breeding to achieve that look?

I think this can be somewhat compared to humans but humans have media influence as well as the subconcious fertility aspect that affects what is attractive and what is not.... but for dogs...? Aren't we the ones who are playing god with how they end up?



Again I apologize if my tone is rude and/or disrespectful. I do not meant to sound that way. All views (including improvements on how i can sound friendlier) are welcomed.Smile Also I apologize that I'm not too good with words and things may seem like its beating around the bush.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



(This post was edited by RealityDreamer on Oct 23, 2004, 2:27 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 23, 2004, 2:02 AM

Post #49 of 161 (3314 views)
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Re: [boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

The trial for a show GSD are nothing more than a 'GAME' to the dogs. Any working dogs do the work becuase it is fun. They enjoy what they do and we humans use their love for a "game" to get them to do what we want. Dogs doing Agility or Flyball really enjoy themselves, just in the same way many show dogs love the show ring and know they are on parade! Sheep farmers use the love of their Border collies to chase and herd to perform a task. That's why the dogs will continue to do it bec they enjoy a game. If they got bored or hated it they will never perform. That is how dogs function. They perform for the enjoyment or for reward! the helpers or the so called bad guys are their buddy on the other end....they train the dog daily, showing/telling the dogs that it will be just fine if u bite, won't hurt you, take the bite from me and such.......on the other side of the breed, the working GSD trial, the helpers are totally a stranger to the dog, and will push the dog to the max (depend on the helper's quality lol :) ) Not entirely true my friend. I started in GSD so know about them a little. The Agression/temperament test is done with ONE guy appointed by the show to come and test the dog. He is the SAME guy for all the contestants. So it's definitely not a "friend" that the dog is familiar that they bring along to do the test. And let me assure you that if the handlers gave the dog the same command outside the ring the dog will still go for you! We can try it out??? LOL

Guess the quote/statement from the father of the GSD says it all. From the book of GSD in Word and PIcture by Max v Stephanitz Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)
When God created Adam and Eve, he also had plans for them, but they also had their own plans. Things change! As mentioned before in this thread how many dogs today actually perform the function they were bred for? Only a handful.



As of the country u mentioned that their dogs need to get the food blended before feeding....i do know that they crossed the Irish Setter with a GR for color. But the darker color dogs are not desirable in Down Under. Yes very true. This is also what i've heard. The Irish setter also contributed to the longer coats.

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


TOPDOG
ALPHA


Oct 23, 2004, 2:22 AM

Post #50 of 161 (3309 views)
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Aiyah - i don't think you were in the wrong thread lah. Tongue Don't be scared. I promise we won't come to your house. Pirate Please feel free to participate in this thread if it interests you. Unsure

LCK Cool


In Reply To
oh oh1 I think I posted in the wrong thread la. forgive me hehehe LaughLaughLaugh

HERO TRY HERO DIE Unsure




LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
---------------------------------
ROMEOW!!!!!!!!!!


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 23, 2004, 2:40 AM

Post #51 of 161 (3780 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post


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Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's BlushI do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed.

Hi there. I didn't find you rude or your tone unfriendly! Great to know that this thread has brought up some interesting discussion.



Just wondering...say (for example) the german shepherd was developed in so many different countries ie. czech,slovakia & UK n they have their own "types" where they are physically different (not just show and working,i mean like the working line czech,slovak & german dogs look different physically) .The germans (though the breed has been developed there as well) think that the czech dogs are ugly(not all,but u get my drift) & The slovaks may think the german GSD is not that attractive. I highly doubt the czechs would want to include a german GSD into their breeding programme and vice versa. so u said, "I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to" Is this just your personal preference? Because i think the germans would never see themselves getting a dachshund from the UK because of the different "type" it has developed into in the UK. Also is there an official statement saying that country x is the country of origin and country y is country of developement or is this something "everyone knows" when you get into the breed?


Yes it is well known fact in breed standards that they state country of origin and country of development. Like i mentioned before many countries have taken on certain breeds and developed them in different fashions. That is why an English bred dach may not do so well under the FCI countries bec their standard is different. You must bare in mind that there are several ruling bodies who have differing breed standards - KC (UK), ANKC, FCI, AKU & AKC. These are the main players but there are smaller bodies but these lot have their own set of standards. By and large KC, ANKC & AKC seem to be more compatible. FCI is a whole different ball game. Thus you will get funny looking GSD in different countries. You will also get bastardisation (evolution) of breeds - Belgian Shepherd, etc. where whole new breeds are developed from existing breeds.




As you say instincts which sets different breeds apart are impossible to breed out of them,how is it that there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat. Although i agree with you,that these days there is not much of a need for a dog to be used for its original purpose(in this case,defending & protecting),but isn't the insticnt of a rott to protect and defend? and isn't it impossible to breed instincts out of a breed? At the moment the only thing i can think of is that like all the other breeds,the requirements(solid nerves,prey drive,civility,etc) for this kind of work has been bred out of them as there is no need for them any more.And this has negated the "instinct" as for a dog to defend and protect he needs solid nerves,defence drive,fight drive etc. With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad,that this "instinct" of the rotts has dissapeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait?



All dogs have basic instincts (not the Sharon Stone movie) and some breeds have certain traits. Traits to me tend to be more physical in nature and instincts inborn. What you're talking about is temperament and that can affect instinct. If a dog is beaten and kicked around all its life it will fear humans so even if it is a 100kg Rotty it will run away from people. Bec behavioural conditions have affected its natural instincts!! Temperament is affected by conditioning and remember that only 30-40% is inherited the rest is environmental. I can give you two of my dachs and if you breed them without conditioning the pups to the social and neurological stimulus that i give them, they will with time go back to the aloof characters they are meant to be. They can even go back further to their natural canine instincts and be aggressive if provoked. I mean i am generalising as if you've been breeding for good temperaments for a while a certain protion of the pups will still have good outgoing natures whilst the others can revert back. That is why breeding good pups also requires a lot of work on the breeders part to ensure healthy (mentally and physically) welll adjusted pups. You can totally affect the temperament and hence in par the instinct of your dog by the way you bring it up. Therefore if that Rott was trained for aggression it could well do it's job and go after a burglar, in the same way i can train a Chihuahua to be a guard dog!!!! No jokes! As your tag line says - no such thing as bad dog just bad owners!



Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog,why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems? Crazy


I sincerely hope you're not one of those PETA or Animal Lib mob that i detest with a passion as they have started with the tail docking issue and next on the agenda is to disallow the breeding of such dogs which were engineered by man for whatever specific purposes they were bred for. They are a dangerous mob as eventually they want to outlaw dog ownership as they feel dogs shouldn't be owned but be free to roam around. I STRONGLY oppose that group.

Ok if you'e not one of them then beware of such people as they can easily brain wash people into thinking we are cruel to own such dogs. Firstly with the GSD - it is not meant to run for miles. It's not a distance endurance dog like a Border Collie but a Guard dog. Hence that back WILL NOT affect its ability to run. Look at a Greyhound or Borzoi, they have similar toplines and they can outrun any breed. Bulldogs were also bred for a specific purpose which required a strong jaw to be able to grab on and not let go, yet the ability to breath whilst doing so. So dogs were created for fashion - i will not pretend that everyone was bred for a specific purpose but these tend to be the companion dogs (Toys).


I think this can be somewhat compared to humans but humans have media influence as well as the subconcious fertility aspect.... but for dogs...? Aren't we the ones who are playing god with how they end up?


Extremity of any form will cause problems and yes man did play God for a while i will not deny that. But if we started to police what breeds could or couldn't be bred due to health reasons - and health is very general ok some will use the most ridiculous excuses and say it is a health problem, then about 50 breeds will eventually be outlawed. Including many of your so called well loved breeds. I will post the list of those breeds in the next few days. With some yes you think they are real health issues to be addressed, but with others they have just gone too far with these Animal rights argument. Remember one fact that the majority of breeds were developed by man and not God so if we let the Animal Libbers have their way, MANY much loved breeds would disappear.

What they fail to understand is that with modern technology and DNA we can breed out and remove MANY of these health issues but then they'd have nothing to protest about right? So they continue beating their drums. Guys we need to band together and be educated about the real issues!



Again I apologize if my tone is rude and/or disrespectful. I do not meant to sound that way. All views (including improvements on how i can sound friendlier) are welcomed.Smile

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 23, 2004, 5:22 AM

Post #52 of 161 (3763 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post


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P.s. you owe me RM1,000. It's fifty cents per letter lah for my advice!! LOL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ShockedWow so xpensive ah??? Anyway I kinda know oredi but just wan to hear your wise explaination and experience in good loontoon trained Ingelish......(include those by Alpha Loya-Surchin - HI HISmile) Anyway coming back to "Type" and "Soundness". I would think that breeding for "Soundness" should take precedence over others factors. In my opinion your "type" would come about eventually after generations of line and inbreeding..........but then who am ICrazy Again a short one from me..........u guys really can write. Good discussion Cheers


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 23, 2004, 8:14 AM

Post #53 of 161 (3748 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello, Smile

Thanks for taking the time to reply and no,I am not one of those PETA or Animal Lib mob.I do support tail docking and ear cropping as long as it is done humanely (by a vet)

But I am still a little confused about the defiition of instinct.Crazy

First it was said that instincts differentiate one breed from another breed (which is impossible to breed out). Then came "all dogs have the same basic instincts.(ie. survival instinct?)" Also,instincts are inborn.ok. i got that.

"My dogs will not attack other dogs and are sociable to other dogs and humans, but if a rat runs past or cicak or bird flies to low they will kill it. Instinct is impossible to breed out of them. And its their instinct that sets them apart from the next breed of dog. My English setter was never trained to set, but watch him in the garden and he will set the birds for you as his ancestors many many moons ago did for huntsmen."

Isnt the link between one of ur dachshunds killing rats and your setter setting birds the same type of link between the rott and his "temperament" to protect and defend?Crazy

"Temperament is affected by conditioning and remember that only 30-40% is inherited the rest is environmental." and temperaments affect instincts. But how can something that is 60-70% affected by the environment (the temperament) affect the instinct which is already inborn in the dog?

Firstly with the GSD - it is not meant to run for miles. German Shepherd Dog. Wasn't it a multi purpose dog? being able to herd as well? Crazy therefore needing the ability to run over miles of farmland..?

Help..? Crazy

Thanks in advance Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



(This post was edited by RealityDreamer on Oct 23, 2004, 8:18 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 23, 2004, 9:04 AM

Post #54 of 161 (3744 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer, boon, LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ya you ...

" ... Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's BlushI do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed ..."

Ahyoooh ... all this deference is surely not meant for me ... you have never been afraid of me ... Tongue ...

So, it must be LCK you are worried about ... *LOL* LaughShocked ... But don worry lar ... LCK is a cuddly teddy bear ... velly nice fella - so don be scared of him ... Just imagine a big black coated Pyrenees with the temperament of a puppy Retriever - that be him! ...

Question: " ... Also is there an official statement saying that country x is the country of origin and country y is country of developement or is this something "everyone knows" when you get into the breed? ..."

I will answer your question from a slightly different perspective, than that posted by LCK.

Dog breeding is in a constant state of flux, with changes going on all the time ... some of it good, some not so good. With some older breeds, there is little dispute over the country of origin or the country of development ... but I would not be surprised if even that changes as time passes.

Take the Akita for example ... country of origin is Japan ... but country of development? It depends on what kind of Akita you are looking at.

You will find a distinct and different Akita in USA from the one in Japan ... Visit these sites to see the differences:

www.akita.com/prosplit/katie.htm

www.americanakitas.com/split_information.htm

In FCI countries, the US Akita is now known as the Great Japanese Dog ...

As more and more people from all over the world start expressing their individual/cultural/regional interpretation of the various Breed Standards ... the distinction between country of origin and country of development - is probably going to get blurred as time goes on.

And sometimes there is a deliberate departure from a known breed. For example: The Shiloh Shepherd is obviously based on the GSD, and save for the initial start point where Malamutes were out-crossed into the breed ... it remains predominantly a GSD based dog. But is it still a GSD? ... Or is it a new breed with a completely new country of origin?


Taking your GSD example ... Yes! since the time of Max von Stephanitz ... the GSD has evolved ... and today, show GSDs are different from working GSDs ... GSDs in USA are different from European GSDs ... and so on ... All this is simply a reflection of the changes in the reasons why people breed GSDs today ... As those purposes change, evolve and get modified, the breeds (including traits, temperament & conformation) also change, evolve and get modified ...

Whether the changes are for better or worse ... that is another question and one of great debate ... But that changes have taken place remains a fact ...

Question: " ... there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat ... With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad, that this "instinct" of the rotts has dissapeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait? ..."

As for "instincts" ... dogs are from family canidae ... and as such, they all share common & similar basic instincts ... the instinct for survival, instinct for reproduction, instinct for guarding of territory & food ... instinct for self preservation & defence ... etc.

What Man has done is to bred selectively (for hundreds of years) emphasising and promoting certain & selected desired instincts in certain breeds ... for particular purposes ...

Because of this selective and specialised breeding ... each breed evolved its own specific, dinstinct & heightened "instincts" ... Hence, the guarding instinct in a Dober is stronger than that of a Labrador ... the scenting instinct in a Beagle is stronger than that in a Saluki ... etc ...

And such distinct & heightened instincts have to be maintained through continual selective breeding ... otherwise nature & evolution demands that they moves back to a median ...

But as times change ... as mentioned above ... the purpose for breeding dogs have also changed ... and with change in purpose - emphasis on the type of instinct to be bred and maintained in a breed has also changed ... and because of that ... you will find that the original basic instincts originally bred & promoted into certain breeds may not be as desired today as they were then ... And because of that, some of the original instincts & traits have or are being slowly bred out (sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentially) of the breeds ...


All this is all just a reflection of the times ... and what dogs are used for today.

But the problem you describe above - is unlikely to be caused by good breeding (whether for work or show) ... The shy, nervous Rottie that you describe would most probably be the result of irresponsible breeding ... and not the result of a carefully planned and researched litter by a reputable breeder (for work or show).

The irresponsible and disreputable breeder will breed dogs regardless & without care - and will invariably produce dogs with unpredictable temperaments, often showing either excessive nervousness/shyness and/or excessive aggression ... People who breed with money as the primary objective will invariably produce progeny with bad or unsuitable temperament (including bad health & conformation) ... and in so doing "undo" and "damage" all the good work done by previous generations of good & responsible breeders!


Question: " ... Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog ... why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems? What I am trying to say here is, why are traits that cause health problems considered beautiful/attractive? ... Aren't we the ones who are playing god with how they end up? ..."

Yes, Man often plays GOD in the sense you describe ... We do it with all animals ... we destroy the animals natural environment, we domesticate them ... then we place them in battery farms ... we change their looks and nature ... we do it with cats, dogs, cows, horses, chickens, ducks ... you name, it we do it ... sometimes out of need (as a food source) ... and sometimes for man's pleasure and/or use (as with dogs, cats & horses) ...

But in the case of dogs, by and large, the majority of breeds were developed for a purpose ... even toy dogs had a purpose, to look cute, be affectionate and provide us with affection ...

But I think your question is ... Given the nature of the Bulldog (as an example), with known difficulties in breathing, in birthing, in health etc ... is it right to go on breeding Bulldogs? ...

Why do we develop breeds with physical difficulties, sometimes to the point of making a breed almost handicapped? ...

WOW! ... It's a good question ... but an awfully hard one to answer ...

First, I guess - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you'd be surprised at how many people think the Bulldog is absolutely cute (ugly but adorable) ... And how many people love miniature ponies ... pygmy dogs & cats ... There is really no accounting for taste ... just look at the Chinese Crested ... Tongue

And second ... it depends on our individual point of view.

For example:

I find an irresponsible breeder who breeds a bitch season after season, just for the purpose of producing puppies to sell ... much more morally reprehensible than a responsible breeder breeding good Bulldogs and finds good homes for them ...

I also find a breeder who deliberately breeds for Bulldogs with ever flatter faces & bigger heads (not caring about the physical difficulties caused) ... more morally reprehensible than a breeder who breeds Bulldogs according to type and standard, with health issues in the forefront of their minds ...

I also find people who ill-treat dogs more morally reprehensible than breeders of Bulldogs.

As a corollary to your example of the Bulldog ... what about Great Danes? ... An average dog has a life span of 12years ... An average Great Dane, because of their genetic makeup, their metabolic & growth rate, lives only for about 7years ...

If you think about it ... the Great Dane is just about as handicapped as a Bulldog ... Should we also stop breeding Great Danes? ... What about Wolfhounds? ... What about Chihuahuas? They are so small and delicate - they live in constant danger of broken bones ...

So, it's a question of degree really ... and very personal ... Because the line to be drawn is very hard and very personal ...


And it's also a question of priorities ... Personally, I think we have a greater & more urgent problem with strays and abandoned dogs ...

Cheers




(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 23, 2004, 9:59 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 23, 2004, 10:15 AM

Post #55 of 161 (3732 views)
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Re: [Riccaval, LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

You ar ... Tongue ... Loontoon Ingelish ... *LOL*...

Cheers


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 23, 2004, 10:45 PM

Post #56 of 161 (3722 views)
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Re: [skipper] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ai'yo yo yo... This has brought in the best knights into the round table discussion. I am so proud to be able to put some much brain cells into this sometimes quiet urban story with my caption!

Anyway, soundness, type, temprement..etc..etc... is part and parcel of being 'champion' as I have quoted earlier.... 'Champion' in itself is not meant by the title as it is quoted as a figure of speech and understanding. This quote came from one of the GR news (GRCA-Golden Retriever Club Of America) where a very reputable lady put that quote out but of course she sum it up with whatever you guys have mentioned above and more!

As you all know, the understanding of "champion" is not in itself the title alone, it means so many things....type temprement, conformation, purpose, standards, definition, breeding, politics, negotiations....so on..... My caption was meant for simplicity and it serves a simple guideline to the green guys in this forum, their safest bet in Malaysia is still go back to "champions' breeding" should they want to get something good in conformation and health! A dog that obtain its title has to somehow conform to a certain degree of conformation and its health has to be somewhere there to win, health in this discussion simply means, its hips are good, descended testicles and most of the time scissor bite (lets not go into more complicated health issue, just basics), this is the most basic requirement in the achievement of the title "champion". In our environment here, we have breeders breeding mono dogs, hip problem dogs, undershot.. and all the crap and sells them to the clients quoting champion line, big head, big bone, big everything and by you big knights going into such deep discussions, not many of the greens could understand, they stay at home thinking and hoping that their dogs are gonna be a champion one day..! I get many private e-mails inquiring about their GR, most came with hip problems and some about dogshow and etc... So my advise to them is simple "Champion and Champion may or may not produce champions, non champion and non champion never produce champions" this quote suits that environment at that time and of course to solid breeder like yourself, this is not applicable! If I were to go down in details and discuss about breed standards, show environment, breeding requirements and etc to a new comer, I think I will better start a GR breeding consulting firm! LCK amd Skipper would best understand my quote as I am sure you come across many who ask you the questions I came across and to educate them, it takes a long time, not all are good learner as we had experienced, some after 3 days of listening becomes a self-professed Guru and start banging of them empty barrels! Anyway, enough said, I am proud to bring the gods and generals into this thread! Kudos!

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 24, 2004, 6:15 AM

Post #57 of 161 (3705 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to hear you're not one of those hysterical animal libbers!!!!

As for your further questions i think Surch has answered them with such applomb and accuracy. I totally agree with what he has said.

As for that list i promised you all, these are the breeds facing extinction if Peta have their way:

Afghan Hound
Airedale Terrier
Australian Shepherd
Australian Silky Terrier
Australian Terrier
Basset Hound

Bedlington Terrier
Belgian Shepherd (4)
Bernese Mountain Dog
Bichon Frise
Bloodhound
Border Collie
Borzoi
Boston Terrier
Bouvier
Boxer
Brittany
Griffon Brucellois
Bulldog (English & French)
Bullterrier

Cairn Terrier
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Central Asian Shepherd Dog
Chihuahua
Chow Chow

Clumber Spaniel
Cocker Spaniel (American & English)
Collie (3)
Corgi (2)

Dandie Dinmont TErrier
Dachshund (6)
Dobermann

Eng Springer Span
Eng Toy Terrier
Finnish Spitz
Fox Terrier (Smooth & Wire)
German Pinscher
GSP (& Wire)
Glen of Imaal TErrier
Great Dane
Greyhound
Griffon
Gordon Setter
Hungarian Vizsla
Irish Terrier
Italian Spinone
Jack Russel
Japanese Chin
Kerry Blue Terrier
King Charles Spaniel
Lakeland Terrier
Large Munstalandeer
Manchester Terrier
Min Pin
Napolitan Mastiff
Newfoundland
Norfolk Terrier
Norwegian Buhund
Norwich Terrier
Old Eng Sheepdog
Papillon
Parson Jack Russel Terrier
Pekingnese
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Poodle (3)
Pug

Pumi
Rottweiler
Saluki
Schipperke
Schnauzer (3)
Sealyham Terrier
Shar Pei
Shih Tzu
St.Bernard
Soft Coated Weaten Terrier
Spaniel - Field, Irish & Water
Sussex Spaniel

Have put in BOLD the breeds that we have here in Malaysia.

Are you guys shocked? I was disgusted.

LCK Unimpressed
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


skipper
Novice

Oct 24, 2004, 6:45 AM

Post #58 of 161 (3701 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Reply in BLACK

Wah lau eh! Discussion is getting more and more interesting.



Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's I do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed.



“Newbie”…I didn’t find you rude or offensive. In fact I think you have asked some intelligent questions. Well, asking question is not disrespectful. But making misleading statement…is also not disrespectful but needs to be corrected if it is not true.



“As you say instincts which sets different breeds apart are impossible to breed out of them,how is it that there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners…”



LCK and Surchin have given some valid points as regards to “instinct”. I tend to believe if a Rottie cower in fear is not a good representative of the breed. Just like any other breeds they have their problems as well perhaps from bad breeding. Therefore, a responsible breeder will never use such dog in their breeding program.



Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog,why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems?



Agree with Surchin, beauty lies on the eye of the beholder. If I am not mistaken the reason why some GSDs has “banana croup” was because of moderate wither flowing into a slightly roach back with a steep croup. The German these days believe it should be higher wither flowing into a firm back and then into a long well laid croup. Now, who is right and who is wrong is very debatable. Perhaps, you should ask sound GSD breeders or judges and hear their views.



Anyway coming back to "Type" and "Soundness". I would think that breeding for "Soundness" should take precedence over others factors. In my opinion your "type" would come about eventually after generations of line and inbreeding..........



All breeders want to achieve everything at one go. Like Instant noodle. But if you ask established breeders I am sure they will tell you the “blue print” is the most important thing in breeding. It takes a step by step approach to establish good breeding stock. For example a Doberman breeder would want to see a blunt wedge head, clean cut parallel plane head, darkest possible almond eye shape with moderate fill under the eye that create the expression “The look of Eagle”. Just imagine if a Doberman loses that look, what good is soundness then? To the Boxer breeders I am sure they would love to breed the typical boxer head with nice repandous, which can only be found in Boxer. To the English Pointer breeders I am sure they wouldn’t want to breed Pointer with round bones and flat face. I am sure they want to see oval bones, dish face and a bee sting tail. What about the Cavalier breeder, I am sure they don’t want the ear set like the Eng. Cocker or ruby with white spot. To the Shih Tzu breeders I am sure they do not want an over bite Shih Tzu, they want under shot bite. To the Afghan will be the punishing jaw. The Lab breeders would certainly want to achieve a nice thick otter tail. Hungarian Visla – v shape ears. Irish Setter – rich mahogany without a single trace of black. The RR breeders, is the ridge at the back of the dog, the pattern, the length, the “samseng” look like Sunsun...lol... To the Lap Cheong Kau (LCK) - short little legs, long body, low to the ground, rounded croup, conical shape head…yak! LOL! Now, that’s the blue print of the breed. Just like every breed has their own blue print or hallmark.

If you look into the breed standards you will find 70% of the breed standard describes TYPE more than anything else. The breed standard described how the head should look like, how the body should be like, how the front and the hind should be when the dog stands, how angulated it should be, the tail, the colour, the size, the pigmentation, the coats the overall impression of the breed and etc etc these are all the characteristic of the breed which is also called type. Soundness of the breed is only described as “gaiting” in the breed standard. That doesn’t mean soundness is not important but type should be given priority over soundness. If a breeder put soundness or titles first, I feel he/she has missed the point in breeding. If I only want to breed a sound dog I don’t have to breed pedigree dogs, as breeding pariahs will also give me soundness in structure. That’s why people like Riccavall will keep breeding for millenniums and never produce a good CKCS as breeding for soundness only will produce a sound “dog” and NEVER a good CKCS!!!! That’s the reason why breeding is interesting because each and every good breeder will strive to breed as close as possible to breed standard and not just for soundness!!!!!!!!!!! What is the point of achieving soundness if you lose the typical look of the breed? It defeats the purpose of breeding. It goes the same to judges. Lucky you’re not a judge uncle Riccavall! Say for example if they have two dogs in the ring. One is very typey but reasonably sound and another is not that typey but very sound…the judge SHOULD choose type over soundness. I am not too sure what they teach our local judges here but I know for a fact that in overseas judges are taught type comes first. Any good established breeder worth their salt will also tell you the same. If they don’t then stay WELL CLEAR of their stock!!!! Just like buying property, what is the most important thing? Location and position than only the price. When you hear a property is available what is the first thing comes to your mind. Where, which place, if it interests you than the second thing you want to know is the price. It is the same with breeding and judging dogs. Type than soundness.




We often hear judges say “Oh! I was so pleased to know that I gave the 1st, 2nd and 3rd placing to father, son and grandson…” (Not necessary in that order) but judges usually are very proud of doing that. Many a time you also hear breeders say “…I really don’t know what he (the judge) is looking for…” simply means the judge was judging all over the place with no consistency in his judging. No consistency basically means not judging to type.



So I still maintain that in breeding type is the first priority as compared to soundness nor titles. There really is no argument on this folks – well that is if you want to breed good dogs. If a breeder strives to breed type first and then soundness, eventually Champion titles will follow.


(This post was edited by skipper on Oct 24, 2004, 6:48 AM)


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 24, 2004, 8:44 AM

Post #59 of 161 (3692 views)
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Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilemost enlightening. I agree, we must leave judging to the experts.

well I think at our level, we should at least know what we are talking about as to "type". Eg. Breeders should know how a Lab should look like and not just take a dog that looks like a Lab and then mate to another one.

As I have mentioned to LCK in the earlier post as to the different 'type's in a particular breed. We have already establish the breed 'type' but some breeders strive to breed to a 'type' that distinguishes itself from another breeder of the same breed.

Having say that....., the breeder's priority is then to concentrate on soundness and after generations of breeding , the distinct 'type' of that particular breeder would surface. I might not be able to put it clearly but i hope you understand what I'm getting at.

I felt your comment to what I said was quite strong to the point of being a bit sarcastic but I respect your opinion, maybe if you really understand what I was trying to put through it would have been different.

Its true I'm still a novice having started breeding ckcs for less then 4 years.....but I certainly hope I dont need a millenium to breed a reasonably good ckcs...LOL

Cheers....no hard feelingsSmile


(This post was edited by Riccaval on Oct 24, 2004, 9:32 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 24, 2004, 11:09 AM

Post #60 of 161 (3679 views)
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Re: [Riccaval, skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

(A) Skipper & LCK say that when it comes to breeding, it is "TYPE" before "SOUNDNESS" ...

(B) Riccaval says that " ... I would think that breeding for "Soundness" should take precedence over others factors. In my opinion your "type" would come about eventually after generations of line and inbreeding ..."


At first instance ... the 2 views above APPEAR different ...

Having re-read some of the posts, I suspect that you guys are actually of reasonably like-mind ... but may be expressing your views in a manner that gives the impression of disagreement.

Let try and explain what I mean ...

Before I start, let's make sure we are all in the same ball park.
  • By "breeding", we refer only to "responsible breeding" for the ultimate purpose of improving a pedigree breed, based on the relevant Standard.
If the above is correct, then even if we view "type" within a breed or interpret the Standard of a breed, slightly differently, it will probably make little difference in this discussion.

1st Assumption:

If a dog is sound BUT is "severely" of bad or poor type ... For example: The dog is a Labrador ... with good strong hips & bones ... good musculature & chest ... is physically sound all-round ... but has the muzzle of an Afghan and the tail of a Whippet ... then in such a case, I think everyone is agreed that such a dog ought not to be bred from.

The possible exceptions to the above, would probably be:
  • A breeder who truly knows his lines & lineage so well, and is convinced that the non-type features are only one-off aberrations, not likely to reappear in the generations to follow.
  • Or where the non-type elements are not so serious, it may be worth taking a chance. For example, some bitches, who may not be of the best type - can still make great brood bitches, throwing wonderful progeny when mated correctly.
2nd Assumption:

If a dog is of good type BUT has "severe" unsoundness ... Then no matter how typey a dog is, if it starts showing hip issues or exhibits unreasonable aggressive tendencies, or other health defects of a genetic nature ... then no responsible breeder will wish to breed from such a dog.

For example: No responsible RR breeder would breed from an RR with dermoid sinus, no matter how good type the dog is. No responsible breeder will breed from a Lab with HD no matter how lovely is otter tail.

Again, I think everyone also agrees with the above.


So, what is the difference between the 2 views, if any?

Given the above, and assuming that my assumptions are reasonably correct, then the differences in opinion only start to emerge when we are trying to decide between dogs of reasonably good type & reasonable soundness ...

It is only in a situation, where the "non-type elements" or "elements of un-soundness" are minor or not critical ... that opinions start to differ ...

(1) When LCK & Skipper say ... TYPE before SOUNDNESS ... they are not saying that soundness is NOT important (issue of soundness is very important to them) ... but just that the issue of TYPE is even more important ... and they will consider the issue of "type" first and then consider issue of "soundness" second ... But it does not mean that they will breed typey dogs that are significantly unsound.

(2) Similarly ... when Riccaval says - SOUNDNESS before TYPE ... he is also not saying that type is not important or that he will breed sound dogs with seriously bad or poor type ... Riccaval is just saying that he will be very cautious and perhaps not breed a typey dog - if it is not equally or substantially sound ... In other words, (perhaps) Riccaval prefers to work out serious issues of unsoundness from his lines BEFORE fine-tuning type.

If my summary of the above is correct ... then there is really not so much difference between the 2 views. The difference being more of individual preference, rather than any serious disagreement over Type or Soundness ...

And it is a difference that will only come to the forefront ... when placed in the position of having to choose or set priority between Type or Soundness in dogs that are reasonably well-matched in both type & soundness ...

Cheers



(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 24, 2004, 11:25 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 24, 2004, 12:59 PM

Post #61 of 161 (3671 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Question: " ... there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat ... With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad, that this "instinct" of the rotts has disappeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait? ..."

I may not have answered your question completely earlier on ... sorry.

As mentioned earlier ... Members of the Canidae family start with basic & similar instincts ... For example: The instinct to guard itself, protect it's pack (it's off-spring), food & territory are common & basic to all dogs wherever found (for that matter, these instincts are basic to most species, including Man).

In the course of domesticating dogs ... Man also started selectively breeding for those instincts that Man found useful in the dog ... The guarding instinct (for obvious reasons) was an instinct Man found very useful, especially in the larger dogs ... Hence, today there are breeds, usually medium/large to large breeds, where such guard/protection instincts are very strong ...

But it must be remembered that the dog's original guarding/protection instinct was NOT to guard Man, Man's family or Man's property - the original instinct was for the dog to guard/protect itself, it's pack (it's off-spring), it's own food & territory ... etc.

Man realised the "self-serving" nature of the dog's instincts very early on ... and this is where "training" comes in ... Simultaneously with the breeding of dogs with "heightened" guard/protection instincts - Man also started training those dogs to use such "heightened & emphasised" instincts for the benefit of Man and at Man's command.

This is evident even today ... we will select pups (bred from guard/protection breeds) with most heightened or sharp personalities & instincts (we call them drives) and put such selected dogs through concentrated & intensive training to develop, modify & redirect those instincts - but this time for the purpose of guarding/protecting us and to do so at our command.

Thus ... (to me) by and large, a dog's ability and efficiency in protecting/guarding Man, his family & property - is more of a "trait" inculcated and trained by Man into a dog rather than a dog's original instinct.

If at all a guard/protection dog's desire to guard/protect Man is an "instinct" it is a much newer & more recent instinct, specifically inculcated & bred for by Man.

So, to your question specifically ... Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend?

Yes, it is ... But the instinct is, by and large, an instinct to guard/protect itself ... Whether or not, the Rottie will similarly guard or protect it's owner, it's owner's family or property ... will depend very much on one or both of the following:

(A) Whether the Rottie's basic instinct to guard/protect has been properly trained, to include guarding/protection of owner, family & property.

(B) Or, failing such training - it will depend on how strongly the Rottie identifies it's owner as part of it's pack. If there is strong pack bonding, then the Rottie may (even without formal training) defend, guard and protect it's owner - because guarding & protection of pack, is part of a Canidae's ORIGINAL instinct.

Take the RR for example: The Canidae's natural/original instinct to bond & form packs was selectively emphasised in the original development of the RR, such that a RR will bond strongly with & treat it's owner as a part of it's pack ... Which is why, even today - the RR has a reputation for being a one person or one family dog ... and for being "aloof" to others ... And may (even without training) protect/defend owner & family ...

As to your question - whether this guarding/protection instinct has been diluted through modern day breeding ... my thoughts are in the earlier post.

Cheers



(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 24, 2004, 1:11 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 24, 2004, 9:45 PM

Post #62 of 161 (3655 views)
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Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

CORRECTION

Hi Brother Skipper,

That’s why people like Riccavall will keep breeding for millenniums and never produce a good CKCS as breeding for soundness only will produce a sound “dog” and NEVER a good CKCS!!!! That’s the reason why breeding is interesting because each and every good breeder will strive to breed as close as possible to breed standard and not just for soundness!!!!!!!!!!!

I disagreee with you on this statement, I think Brother Riccaval did produced some reasonably nice CKCS that's sound and reasonably typey. It may not be to your liking of the Best In Show quality like what you have shown to but he is breeding with very limited resources (not money concern) but the lousy CKCS owner's attitude, too many aunties in this breed! Well, he did bring his CKCS through the new millenium though!!!

What is the point of achieving soundness if you lose the typical look of the breed? It defeats the purpose of breeding. It goes the same to judges. Lucky you’re not a judge uncle Riccavall!

Alamak, Uncle Riccaval is an aspiration judge and has actually judged a match show at Klang recently! Though not an All Breed Championship Show but uncle still judge a match show and put up a Golden Retriever for BIS!!! BTW uncle skipper, talking about 'typey', the interpretation from one soul to another varies (what more from 1 country to another)! The standard serves everyone only as a benchmark but everybody's interpretation and understanding is different to a certain extent, that's why we need EXPERIENCED judges to put up the right dogs because they will determine the future of the breeds! Otherwise, all will be ruined!

Clangan


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 24, 2004, 10:29 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 24, 2004, 10:27 PM

Post #63 of 161 (3652 views)
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Re: [Mey Lim SM] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear all, sorry for this late reply and slightly out of present topic of discussion but I need to answer to this cause I freaking miss this out!!!

I'm not an anti-gan, I'm just speaking about things that I've really come accross. When Mr Gan mentioned that none of the Penang GR really make it to the top, yes, I do agree with him......... correct me if I'm wrong for the below was something I heard from some friends.


What I quoted was since 2000, non of the Penang GR make it to the top but I did ask you to enlighten me and correct me if I am wrong! I hope the Penagites will not be angered by this statement!!

In the last year Penang Dog Show, the one in Komtar Dom. It was a two days vanue.On Saturday, Mr Gan's GR lose to a Penang Lang. On Sunday, Mr Gan protest and the Penang Lang become way behind him. ( From that moment, I actually think that all those dogs shows things are bullshit, pure politics ). However, I'm not the type that goes joinning competition one, so I don't comment on things that I don't know.


Yes, i remember that show in Penang, I think Uncle LCK and many more remember that show too. I did not protest because I lost, I protested because that GR was severely undershot, this is witnessed by LCK and many more. Lots of attention are given to Golden Retriever's bite. The standard call for scissor bite, severity of level and misallignment are penalised accordingly. Undershot or overshot is a disqualification. That explains why I protested, a judge from Australia put this dog up for Reserve Best In Group and BOB. After that show, the dog was place last in every other show! Lucky for him judges under ANKC do not practice disqualification, at least I was told by the respective judge of the day that they do not practice disqualification!!! Meaning to say, one can still bring in a single testicle dog and win under her!!!

Again, I protested because I hold dear to the breed, the Golden Retrievers, I will not allow a wrong dog to win in any circumstances (that's why I protested but it went to deaf Australian's ears) because like I have mentioned, the judges will determine the future of the breed and if this particular GR was to be place highly, we are going to have GR in PENANG with undershot jaws which will not serve its purpose as a retriever with a soft bite! What more it is cheap and good!! With that, I've fail because my intention is not to win but to promote the breed to its most correct conformation and characteristics.

Again, to Mr Glangan, I'm sorry that I've gave you trouble........... Take one advice, yes, you are a pro, but you don't have to sound SOMBONG, for that was the flame that started the whole thing.


Ok lor, next time I will sound sexy-sexy ok...and not sombong lor!?!?




(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 24, 2004, 10:37 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 25, 2004, 6:21 PM

Post #64 of 161 (3615 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi LCK,


In Reply To


Not entirely true my friend. I started in GSD so know about them a little. The Agression/temperament test is done with ONE guy appointed by the show to come and test the dog. He is the SAME guy for all the contestants. So it's definitely not a "friend" that the dog is familiar that they bring along to do the test. And let me assure you that if the handlers gave the dog the same command outside the ring the dog will still go for you! We can try it out??? LOL



OK....for the gan test....usually they're the same guy ( i mean same person for all dogs that take the trial/test). Yes u r right, some dog(s) will take u even out of the ring with command, but out of a million how many show GSDs will do that compare to the working one ? Fight or Flight ?

Surely we can always try it out.....if one day u and i have the opportunity and the time is right.....give me the full bite and hit me hard.....lol...this type of feeling is hard to express and explain, only when u take the bite u can feel it...it just GREAT.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 25, 2004, 8:30 PM

Post #65 of 161 (3602 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileHi Surch,
You sum up my thoughts very well, that was what I was getting at.
ThanksWink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 25, 2004, 9:53 PM

Post #66 of 161 (3593 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Gentlemen. Can i illustrate why Skipper and myself believe that as a breeder of any worth, you MUST first put TYPE over SOUNDNESS. Below is the breed standard for the CKCS. Please take the time to read through and then read my comments below.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

GENERAL APPEARANCE - Active, graceful and well balanced, with gentle expression.

CHARACTERISTICS - Sporting, affectionate, absolutely fearless.

TEMPERAMENT - Gay, friendly, non-aggressive; no tendency to nervousness.

HEAD AND SKULL - Skull almost flat between ears. Stop shallow. Length from base of stop to tip of nose about 3.8 cms (11û2 ins). Nostrils black and well developed without flesh marks, muzzle well tapered. Lips well developed but not pendulous. Face well filled below eyes. Any tendency to snipiness undesirable.

EYES - Large, dark, round but not prominent; spaced well apart.

EARS - Long, set high, with plenty of feather.

MOUTH - Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. the upper teeth closely overlapping the lower teeth and set square to the jaws.

NECK - Moderate length, slightly arched.

FOREQUARTERS - Chest moderate, shoulders well laid back; straight legs, moderately boned.

BODY - Short-coupled with good spring of rib. Level back.

HINDQUARTERS - Legs with moderate bone; well turned stifle - no tendency to cow or sickle hocks.

FEET - Compact, cushioned and well feathered.

TAIL - Length of tail in balance with body, well set on, carried happily but never much above the level of the back. Docking optional. If docked no more than one-third to be removed.

GAIT/MOVEMENT - Free moving and elegant in action, plenty of drive from behind. Fore and hind legs move parallel when viewed from in front and behind.

COAT - Long, silky, free from curl. Slight wave permissible. Plenty of feathering. Totally free from trimming.

COLOUR - Recognised colours are:
Black and Tan - Raven black with tan markings above the eyes, on cheeks, inside ears, on chest and legs and underside of tail. Tan should be bright. White marks undesirable.
Ruby - Whole coloured rich red. White markings undesirable.
Blenheim - Rich chestnut markings well broken up, on pearly white ground. Markings evenly divided on head, leaving room between ears for much valued lozenge mark or spot (a unique characteristic of the breed).
Tricolour - Black and white well spaced, broken up, with tan markings over eyes, cheeks, inside ears, inside legs, and on underside of tail.
Any other colour or combination of colours highly undesirable.


SIZE -
Weight: 5.4-8 kg (12-18 lbs).
A small well-balanced dog well within these weights desirable.


FAULTS - Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.

NOTE - Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.


Everything is RED describes TYPE and everything in BLUE describes SOUNDNESS. Anything in GREEN represents a mixture of the two depending what you are referring to. So do you now see why Type takes precedence over Soundness. Guys none of you have to take our opinion as gospel and everyone in dog beeding is entitled to their opinion. But if you are seriously considering being a good breeder then follow the adage of Type of Soundness and then you can short cut your route to success as opposed to trying to be "clever" and thinking that soundness is more important and breeding for generations to get soundness and then realising you have lost type.

Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy. Why complicate a complicated enough process? That is what i can't understand.

Also want to stress Surch's point that whilst we put type over soundness that doesn't mean we will forgive a lame dog or one that moves unsoundly due to obvious health defects like hip problems or whatever. Of course we strive to when planning breedings make sure that we get type and soundness if possible. But we may sacrifice a LITTLE for soundness to get type fixed, as soundness is easier to fix than type.

Derrick as a Judge it did frighten me a bit lah that you will say soundness is more important than type and i'm glad you clarified what you were tyring to say. I think bec you used the word "precedence" is what sealed the whole thing. And i sincerely hope that when judging, judges are NOT looking for a dog that can do a perfect out and back, but one that is the best representative of its breed. Bec at the end of the day you have to ask yourself - "does it represent a good specimen of the breed."

But as i stated earlier folks - there are no set rules on how you have to breed your dogs. Do as you please. Just IMHO a foolish man tries to re-invent the wheel!! Some things you can argue about based on opinion and somethings have been tried and tested for centuries.


LCK Cool



In Reply To

(1) When LCK & Skipper say ... TYPE before SOUNDNESS ... they are not saying that soundness is NOT important (issue of soundness is very important to them) ... but just that the issue of TYPE is even more important ... and they will consider the issue of "type" first and then consider issue of "soundness" second ... But it does not mean that they will breed typey dogs that are significantly unsound.

(2) Similarly ... when Riccaval says - SOUNDNESS before TYPE ... he is also not saying that type is not important or that he will breed sound dogs with seriously bad or poor type ... Riccaval is just saying that he will be very cautious and perhaps not breed a typey dog - if it is not equally or substantially sound ... In other words, (perhaps) Riccaval prefers to work out serious issues of unsoundness from his lines BEFORE fine-tuning type.


Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 25, 2004, 9:57 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 25, 2004, 10:25 PM

Post #67 of 161 (3581 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surch,
You sum up my thoughts very well, that was what I was getting at.
ThanksWink


I would also like to sum up the aspiration judge's thought! To be a good judge, one should not only be able to spot the quality of a dog but able to interpret it in words and writing. It is an in-born talent to see a good dog and to be able to breed them to carry on the legacy of excellence, of course text books and experience counts too (what we call an eye for a dog, which I think is pretty much in-born and I know text books judges and cyber-breeder cum judges who are in its own way very educational!) but most importantly, to be able to interpret the standards of each breeds and express your point of view as a judge is utmost importance. That in itself shows your fluency in the breed you judge and the confident attached to it. The in-born talent, well, that's a talent that's cannot be incorporated! That is why those talent and experience if not nurtured by our club, MKA and if a judge needs a third party to sum up for him to express his or her points of views, all is ruined!!! If one is qualify as a judge, or even been considered at the 'call-off' All Breed Championship Show in Malacca show end of the year, and needs a 3rd party who have bred nothing to back up his explanation and statement, I am disgusted! I think he or she will be able to explain soundess, type and other required jargons used ever so frequent in the breeding or showing of dogs by themselves and be confident with it!

Anyway, the strong words are not meant to personal attack anyone but I hope one should learn up quickly and be a good future judge otherwise, one should just quit. Keeping quiet and be mild to everyone and try to get the right political alliance to obtain one's license, that's just going to be detrimental to many breeds in the future of Malaysia!!!!! And surely, I do not wish to be judge by a judge who could put up an undershot dog over a dog that's crowned American, Canadian and Malaysian Champion and not to mention the journey to the slaughter takes more than 5 hours in a yellow van!!!!!!!

Regards,



"Excellent Conformation champions & excellent conformation champion dogs and bitches may or may not produce conformation champion dogs and bitches but non conformation dogs and bitches never produces conformation champion dogs and bitches of maybe once in a while they do produce some sort of champions ......" p/s: This caption I hope is good enough for LCK and Suchinmy!!!


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 25, 2004, 10:26 PM

Post #68 of 161 (3580 views)
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Re: [LCK, Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah so ... Smile ...

Would it also be fair to say ... that in in prioritising "Type" ... namely, the elements in "Red" ... A breeder would also be (more or less automatically) working towards the element of "Soundness" ... the element in "Blue"?

... Because, correct, good musculature & skeletal set, would naturally improve issue of action, drive and general movement ...

I am particularly looking at the following elements of the Standard:

NECK - Moderate length, slightly arched. FOREQUARTERS - Chest moderate, shoulders well laid back; straight legs, moderately boned. BODY - Short-coupled with good spring of rib. Level back. HINDQUARTERS - Legs with moderate bone; well turned stifle - no tendency to cow or sickle hocks. FEET - Compact ... TAIL - Length of tail in balance with body, well set on, carried happily but never much above the level of the back.

GAIT/MOVEMENT - Free moving and elegant in action, plenty of drive from behind. Fore and hind legs move parallel when viewed from in front and behind.

Cheers


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 25, 2004, 10:32 PM

Post #69 of 161 (3578 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Derrick as a Judge it did frighten me a bit lah that you will say soundness is more important than type and i'm glad you clarified what you were tyring to say.
---------------------------------------------------------
sorry i frighten youFrown


----------------------------------------------------------Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy.
----------------------------------------------------------
Madwhy u didn't tell me earlier........this is useful information.

Anyway.......thanks for the post, point has been taken and actually we were of the same view but wrong choice of words use by meTongue

cheersSmile


skipper
Novice

Oct 25, 2004, 10:32 PM

Post #70 of 161 (3578 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah yo yo uncle Riccaval, say lah early early you also agree...but because you said "precedence" mah....Anyway, I was not tying to be rude. Too excited....lol. At least you agree not breeding titles to titles...To do the RIGHT thing and trying to do things right is two different things. Ok Uncle you stay cool and have a nice day! Cheers mate.


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 25, 2004, 11:03 PM

Post #71 of 161 (3566 views)
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Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smileno worrys man/mdm......i'm cool. I appreciate those who are learned and knows what they are talking about. I'm still very much a novice and still learning. Unlike some ppl who just dont admit it.Tongueand think that they know everything.

cheersWink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 12:28 AM

Post #72 of 161 (3552 views)
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In Reply To

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sorry i frighten youFrown

Is ok lah. Just don't forget that big guy like me can also get terperanjat lah!

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Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy.
----------------------------------------------------------
Madwhy u didn't tell me earlier........this is useful information.

That is why when you are serious about breeding dogs or even showing dogs, you must do three things:

1. Buy two books - Glossary of Canine Terms and Harry Spira's Canine Terminology. If these two books are not part of your library make sure you get it a.s.a.p. All dog show people must have these two "Bibles" in their library. Read it every night before you go to sleep and meditate upon it!!! Laugh And also have the breed standard of your dog and also for the entire group that your dog is part of. Study and UNDERSTAND what the definitions in your breed standards mean. Have an idea of the other breeds in your group so that when a judges places another dog in the group line up atleast you know why that dog is superior. Wink

2. Find a good sifu - for most Malaysians we would have to look overseas as there aren't many long term breeders in many breeds here so look to find mentors overseas who are longterm breeders and successful ones. By success i don't just mean in the showring but breeders who have CONSISTENTLY bred good dogs over a few generations. Have more than one sifu if possible and that will help you get an all round perspective as some breeders can tend to be insular in their views. Avoid breeders who say theirs is the BEST and everyone else garbage. Such people are blinkered and kennel blind. No single breeder will have it all.

Be prepared to travel overseas, visit these breeders, see their dogs in the flesh and to go over them too. Seeing pictures is one thing but putting your hands on the dog and watching it move will teach you so much more. Any good handler can stack a dog to make it show its best and cover faults, but movement and hands on assessment will tell you otherwise. Blush Follow them to shows and look at other dogs too. You must be able to evaluate the dogs standing ringside. Take pictures, take a video and watch it again and again. Talk to the other breeders and go over their dogs too. The more you see and more you feel the better you will become. Ask questions like "What are this dogs atributes?", "If you could improve on this dog what would you like to change?" (this is a polite way to say what are his/her faults) See any pups they have if possible. Be weary of breeders who rattle off titles of the parents or grandparents or show accolades and do not tell you any other information besides show wins. Ask about winning progeny - "What has this dog produced?"

NEVER be afraid to ask as by asking and exposing even that you are a novice you can learn so much. Shocked I remember hearing a breeder say a particular puppy is "still loose in the shoulder" at first i just nooded and then i decided to brave my stupidity being exposed and asked "what do you mean by loose in shoulder". As opposed to being mocked i was given an explanation and then showed how it looks!! Me no stupid anymore as now i know what they mean!! Tongue

You will have to visit a National show of your breed as that will be the opportunity to see as many of your chosen breed exhibited and that is a feast for the eyes. Our Dach National in Oz was last April and there were 600+ dachs there from all over Oz, NZ, UK, USA & Malaysia!!! Wink Non stop seeing them, going over them for 2 days was MAGIC! This was my third National and i NEVER miss one. I'm even off to the USA next year for their National! It's not a cheap hobby folks, so if you want to get good at it and get a good education, you're going to have to b prepared to spend the money. I buy every video available of any specialty show and I also regularly go over for shows to see the dogs, meet more breeders and talk, eat (not literally), sleep DOGS DOGS DOGS!!!

Sadly we do not have a large enough following here in Malaysia to be able to keep seeing the dogs in our ring an learn a lot as our numbers are sadly small. Frown So if necessary take the mountain to mohammed. There are no shortcuts in dogs and dog breeding. I visit kennels, stay with the breeders and learn learn learn. Help them wash their kennels or feed the dogs with them if need be, but all the time you're being immersed in DOGS and learning!


3. Be honest with yourself and your breeding. Angelic As i told you all before i get the input of several people whose opinion i respect. When assesing pups i will take pics and send to them and always say "HONEST BRUTAL COMMENTS PLEASE" and want them to give me honest opinions. Not BLESS ME comments like "sweet head" "sweet dog" "sweet pups". In my vocab or amongst my dog friends SWEET = PET. Laugh Don't assume that just because the pup stands four square, has good coat it's show worthy. I personally NEVER sell a show quality pup unless it is about 6-8 months old and lived with me all that time.

4. Have you achieved what you were trying to improve by doing this mating? Crazy This is a question i ask myself when assessing pups. I know the father had a good front, nice defined prosternum, good hindquarters. The Dam was weak in hindquarters so that is why i mated her to this dog who excels in hindquarters. (Please bear in mind that factors like type, lineage etc have already been taken account of) So do the pups have better hindquarters than their mum and as good as their dads? If no then why keep them? You've not improved the problem you sought to solve. These are the decisions a serious breeder has to make. No point saying "aiyah, i wanted some pups from BelleBelle lah so nevermind we just keep one lah and maybe next time we improve the problem" This attitude is that of a pet breeder. If you keep one each time you end up with a kampung of pets.
(Please understand that i've simplified the complexity of this subject to illustrate a point! No smart arse remarks from Skipper and Surch!) Mad

5. Accept the fact that sometimes most of us start of with pets. Unsure If we are keen on showdogs then we might have to get rid of the pets (by this i mean keep them at home not kill them) and not insist on bringing them to every show and getting disheartened by being placed LAST. Go and find a good show worthy dog and spend the money if you have to to buy one. but please don't get caught up by the adage that MOST expensive is the best. Not always, but with ofcourse be prepared to pay and not expect to get a freebie cheapo dog. Freebie cheapo one then you might as well continue showing your pet. Shocked

Anyway.......thanks for the post, point has been taken and actually we were of the same view but wrong choice of words use by meTongue

That's why you cannot just tembak tembak simply. Must explain oneself fully and concisely or else people tembak you! Pirate In any forum when posting an opinion make sure you have explained yourself clearly and to the understanding of everyone reading it. Assuming people know what you mean only makes an ASS out of U and ME!!! SmileTongue (ASS U ME!) Remember how this whole thread began??? LOL Wink

cheers

LCK Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 26, 2004, 12:44 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 12:36 AM

Post #73 of 161 (3546 views)
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I'm still very much a novice and still learning. Unlike some ppl who just dont admit it.Tongueand think that they know everything.

cheersWink



LOL ! You crack me up Derrick!!! Yeah some are born know it all!Tongue

No lah you not novice. Novice is the one who just bought their first show dog! You have traveled overseas etc and bought several dogs into the country! Wink

Lck Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 12:37 AM

Post #74 of 161 (3544 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Do you know that fixing movement can take as little as 1-2 generations of breeding whilst fixing a head can take up to 5? Fixing shoulders up to 7? So if you go for type and get the right type fixed then you can always fix soundness in a jiffy.



OK....i learned something new today and this will be benificial to me and thsoe that read this thread and understand it.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 12:53 AM

Post #75 of 161 (3535 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

hi LCK,


Quote


This is a question i ask myself when assessing pups. I know the father had a good front, nice defined prosternum, good hindquarters. The Dam was weak in hindquarters so that is why i mated her to this dog who excels in hindquarters. (Please bear in mind that factors like type, lineage etc have already been taken account of) So do the pups have better hindquarters than their mum and as good as their dads?



Do u mind eleborate more........this is interesting.......how would this apply to a working GSD ? like may be a nerve of steel, driveys male but a bit aggressive (civil edge) mated to the average/moderate working female with calm temperement or a show bitch (hope not yucks) ............will actually
  1. dilute the nerve ? drives ? of the male ?
  2. produce an animals with moderate nerve/drives with calm temperement
  3. or best of both world with the high drivey and nerve of steel dog with super calm temperement....


of coz this is no simple equation and i do understand this, the dogs behind the sire/dam also taken into consideration (for 5 level up may be).

How do u access this so called breeding/mating in general........

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


skipper
Novice

Oct 26, 2004, 1:22 AM

Post #76 of 161 (3129 views)
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Smileno worrys man/mdm......i'm cool. I appreciate those who are learned and knows what they are talking about. I'm still very much a novice and still learning. Unlike some ppl who just dont admit it.Tongueand think that they know everything.

cheersWink



Lol…Sounds like you were referring to a person(s)?? Hmm...Wonder who eh?? Well, there are things in life cannot be taught but caught. Cheers.


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 1:33 AM

Post #77 of 161 (3125 views)
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Re: [boon] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post


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hi LCK,



Do u mind eleborate more........this is interesting.......how would this apply to a working GSD ? like may be a nerve of steel, driveys male but a bit aggressive (civil edge) mated to the average/moderate working female with calm temperement or a show bitch (hope not yucks) ............will actually

  1. dilute the nerve ? drives ? of the male ?
  2. produce an animals with moderate nerve/drives with calm temperement
  3. or best of both world with the high drivey and nerve of steel dog with super calm temperement....




Boon not sure what you mean by "driveys male", "civil edge". Maybe these are working GSD terms? So perhaps you could elaborate?

But to me if you're breeding working line GSD's why not stick to working line GSD's whose natural instincts have been honed and heightened over several generations to work. As i mentioned before any dog can be trained to do work, but i guess it may be a bit easier if the working instinct has been there are cultivated in the ancestors for a few generations already. JMHO. Surch what are your thoughts?




LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


ricky
Enthusiast


Oct 26, 2004, 1:39 AM

Post #78 of 161 (3122 views)
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Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

All the sifu sharing their value experience....those novice like us must learn as much as we can...Sly

Keep going...share more !!! Tongue
friendly,
RicKY




clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 26, 2004, 2:28 AM

Post #79 of 161 (3107 views)
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Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Alamak,

No one is born to know everything leh...but there are ppl who knows enough but yet not enough...but warrant a de-bark by fellow dog kaki in pursuit! Then there is ppl who knows very little but yet very loud, and there are some super know everything and do not say a word! Hmmm.....

But to uncle LCK and uncle Skipper, I will bow to your hands-on on papayas, you are already sifus when I was only milking..! But are you ever going to judge a dog show? Your advise will be in vain when you and your dogs are judge by your so-called not so novice Sly!!!!!!! So, brothers, save your hot pursuits and you will be judged...!!! "In Dogs We Trust"



(I heard the de-barking funds has reach its all time high, jom, mari kita minum...! Alcohol and fresh fruits bunch soften the loud mouth down mah!)


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 26, 2004, 2:31 AM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 26, 2004, 3:01 AM

Post #80 of 161 (3098 views)
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Re: [boon] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way Boon, you can get LCK e-mails if you wanna know more about working GSD!!! All i know is that a 7 months working GSD should not jump over neighbours and bite auntie's butt off!!!!!! BTW, he is a champee-an Lap Cheong man leh and own a couple of show GSD but all retired...!

clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 3:02 AM

Post #81 of 161 (3097 views)
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All the sifu sharing their value experience....those novice like us must learn as much as we can...Sly

Keep going...share more !!! Tongue



Ricky - knowledge is to be shared. No point taking it to the grave to feed worms. They don't need your knowledge. Laugh To me whether people want to think my advice is in vain or whatever i don't care lah. Whether they want to ask if i will be a judge or not doesn't matter. Tongue Obviously some of the issues raised in this thread have been helpful to many who dare to admit it and i'm sure also to those who pretend to be sifu! I'm far from being a sifu lah - still plenty to learn. Blush That's what's fun about this dog game - it's a continual learning process. Knowing a bit more than others doesn't make me a sifu!!! Wink

FYI - being a judge isn't the ultimate aim of every successful breeder - some very successful breeders are not judges and have no intention to be either, as they enjoy just being breeders only. Laugh Judging is not everyone's cup of tea and doesn't have to be the culmination of a successful breeding career. Wink Likewise some manage to also do both!

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 3:13 AM

Post #82 of 161 (3091 views)
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Re: [skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Lol…Sounds like you were referring to a person(s)?? Hmm...Wonder who eh?? Well, there are things in life cannot be taught but caught. Cheers.



One of my all time favourite doggy expressions Skipper - Some things are caught not taught! Laugh


LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 26, 2004, 3:50 AM

Post #83 of 161 (3081 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Uncle LCK,

Ricky - knowledge is to be shared. No point taking it to the grave to feed worms. They don't need your knowledge. Laugh To me whether people want to think my advice is in vain or whatever i don't care lah. Whether they want to ask if i will be a judge or not doesn't matter

That's not what I meant what, you LCK, Skipper and Surchinmy do put out very good advice and knowledge, I never deny that.! I think I meant differently and got the msg across wrong again only! Personally, I think your knowledge and track records surpassed many of us...Royar here, royar there winning big-big, why so like that one wor...?!?Unsure Tomorrow give FFB lor ok..?!

Obviously some of the issues raised in this thread have been helpful to many who dare to admit it and i'm sure also to those who pretend to be sifu! I'm far from being a sifu lah - still plenty to learn. Blush That's what's fun about this dog game - it's a continual learning process. Knowing a bit more than others doesn't make me a sifu!!! Wink

Bro, it has been indeed helpful, I learn so much about CKCS, gonna breed one soon, Coefficient Of Inbreeding surpassed 30% wan.... All because of your good advice on mudder and fudder big big mar! Sorry if I pretend to be sifu cause I am not, no chance with grand-sifu here pamping me everyday..... Ok lor, knowing more from you is of course useful and helpful, your ingrish so good one and your knowledge in dogs lagi wa leau!!

FYI - being a judge isn't the ultimate aim of every successful breeder - some very successful breeders are not judges and have no intention to be either, as they enjoy just being breeders only. Laugh Judging is not everyone's cup of tea and doesn't have to be the culmination of a successful breeding career. Wink Likewise some manage to also do both!


Agreed, but the day will come when we will have the honour to be judge by LCK "Standard Chartered Bank motto", Skipper and Searchin ma..! No hard feelings ok???

Clangan


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 26, 2004, 3:51 AM

Post #84 of 161 (3080 views)
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Re: [LCK, skipper, Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Lol…Sounds like you were referring to a person(s)?? Hmm...Wonder who eh?? Well, there are things in life cannot be taught but caught. Cheers.


Yeah ... but then when trying to catch ... even then can also miss ... !!! ... Tongue ...

Cheers


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 26, 2004, 3:54 AM

Post #85 of 161 (3078 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

LCK, Skipper, Surchinmy, Riccaval,

One of my all time favourite doggy expressions Skipper - Some things are caught not taught! Laugh

I agreed!!! But no hard feelings, I am only trying to put out a point which I believe strongly and you are at yours. I always believe in hands-on experience! You see, the caption has been put to its proper sentence to suit the environment here(below)...!!! Relax brothers???!!!Pirate By the way, can you guys switch to discuss Golden Retrievers? We are at a kosher gundog forum! I am very keen to hear about your view about the American, British, Australian and Malaysian!!! And if I tembak again, just think it is naturally me and you can start another round of de-barking funds...then I can get FFB again lor...!!!!!

Repeat: "Excellent Conformation champions & excellent conformation champion dogs and bitches may or may not produce conformation champion dogs and bitches but non conformation dogs and bitches never produces conformation champion dogs and bitches or maybe once in a while they do produce some sort of champions if the breed is new or rare ......" p/s: This caption I hope is good enough for LCK, Skipper and Surchinmy!!!

ClanganWink



(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 26, 2004, 4:05 AM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 4:10 AM

Post #86 of 161 (3075 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi LCK,

OK drivey i'm referring to the said dog has a lot of drives, like over prey or over defence, overly aggressive towards animal or human or those pack and ranking issues like always like to challenge the handler. Under certain situation like the dog has been corrected in an unfair situation, he/she will fight back like bite and etc.....

Civil edge == civil aggression, willingness to take the fight and challenge.........most of the drivey does does have certain level of civil aggression.

What i mean for putting a working and a show is just an example...i'm never into show gsd and will not plan to in the foreseeable future....i just wanted your view on if the drivey male put to the calm and moderate female (could be a show or working line female) what will the pups turn out to be. Lets assume that the said dog/bitch has certain dogs in common in their pedigrees.

May be a 3,3, 3,4, 4-4 on some dogs/bitches.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 26, 2004, 4:26 AM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 26, 2004, 4:23 AM

Post #87 of 161 (3072 views)
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Re: [boon] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon don't mind if I "kay poh" a bit, I think PSD is able to shed some light here???

OK drivey i'm referring to the said dog has a lot of drives, like over prey or over defence, overly aggressive towards animal or human or those pack and ranking issues like always like to challenge the handler. Under certain situation like the dog has been corrected in an unfair situation, he/she will fight back like bite and etc.....

Bro, it sounds to me this dog is way too aggressive for my comfort, if this dog is put to work at a new environment and still possess such dominance and aggresive nature, I think he will fail all the test! Imagine if the handler is attack by his own dog or working with a group of other handlers and dogs!?! I think drive is an understatement, it sounds like this type of dogs need to be given Pro-zac!!

What i mean for putting a working and a show is just an example...i'm never into show gsd and will not plan to in the forseable future....i just wanted your view on if the drivey male put to the calm and moderate female (could be a show or working line female) what will the pups turn out to be. Lets assume than they said dog/bitch has certain dogs in common in their level 3 in pedigree.

My understanding is that aggressive nature will not equal out if you use an aggressive male mated to a mild mannered bitch, I think the end results will be some pups turning out like its sire and some like its dam, never in between! Temperament is a trait that cannot be altered but good character can be fortified...look what theguys here have done to me!?!Laugh

Clangan



boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 4:30 AM

Post #88 of 161 (3066 views)
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Hi Gan,

Read my quote and signature again and think of it.....i like crazy dogs....and i do think PSD too...may be he is more crazy than i do......

with the said dog i can only say one word if i happen to meet one and own one 'LOVELY'

Pro-Zac ? hahahhah do u want some....i can spare some for u........LaughTongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 4:36 AM

Post #89 of 161 (3061 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Gan,

Thanz for ur offer, i know who on earth am i discussing with...thanz a lot.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 26, 2004, 7:42 AM

Post #90 of 161 (3046 views)
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FYI - being a judge isn't the ultimate aim of every successful breeder - some very successful breeders are not judges and have no intention to be either, as they enjoy just being breeders only. Laugh Judging is not everyone's cup of tea and doesn't have to be the culmination of a successful breeding career. Wink Likewise some manage to also do both!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How true Gopi. Being a judge or not is no big deal, its just a natural progression for those who enjoys the sport. Its also very common for those who dont think much of a certain judge to just stay away.

Oops but this is another issue...........talking about novice judge, Ha!!!!!!LaughLaugh


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 26, 2004, 8:00 AM

Post #91 of 161 (3045 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyway, the strong words are not meant to personal attack

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If ur post is not a personal attack I dont know what isTongue

but then why am I not surpriseCrazy Ahhh nevermind.


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 26, 2004, 8:37 AM

Post #92 of 161 (3042 views)
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Re: [LCK, boon] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

LCK posted ... " ... This is a question i ask myself when assessing pups. I know the father had a good front, nice defined prosternum, good hindquarters. The Dam was weak in hindquarters so that is why i mated her to this dog who excels in hindquarters. (Please bear in mind that factors like type, lineage etc have already been taken account of) So do the pups have better hindquarters than their mum and as good as their dads? ..."

Boon asked ... " ... Do u mind eleborate more........this is interesting.......how would this apply to a working GSD ? like may be a nerve of steel, driveys male but a bit aggressive (civil edge) mated to the average/moderate working female with calm temperement or a show bitch (hope not yucks) ... will actually ... dilute the nerve? drives? of the male? ... produce an animals with moderate nerve/drives with calm temperement? ... or best of both world with the high drivey and nerve of steel dog with super calm temperement? ..."

LCK posted ... " ... Surch what are your thoughts? ..."

As I understand it ... Boon's query is based on LCK's example of matching strength & weakness when breeding for conformation ... and Boon is wondering what will happen when working dogs of contrasting temperaments are matched ...?

I think we can safely say that genetics certainly plays a part in a dog's temperament ...

Now ... and having gone through all of the above --- MY ANSWER IS ... I have no blo*dy idea ... TongueCoolLaugh

My guess is that when you match dogs with similar temperaments, your chances of getting similar temperament are higher ... but when you match dogs with contrasting temperaments - the progeny may exhibit the whole range of possible temperaments ...


I am not so sure you can equate breeding for temperament along the same lines as breeding for conformation ... So much of conformation is physical & almost all genetically driven ... With temperament however so much depends on how a pup is brought up, the environment, the owner ... the training methods ... etc ... all of which goes into making the personality of the adult dog, and complicates any assessment or comparison of temperament at birth, and the eventual temperament we see in the adult.

Boon, if you are really interested ... I can check with some working dog breeders and let you know what they say.

Cheers



(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 26, 2004, 9:33 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 26, 2004, 9:18 AM

Post #93 of 161 (3035 views)
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" ... No point saying "aiyah, i wanted some pups from BelleBelle lah so nevermind we just keep one lah and maybe next time we improve the problem" This attitude is that of a pet breeder. If you keep one each time you end up with a kampung of pets. (Please understand that i've simplified the complexity of this subject to illustrate a point! No smart arse remarks from Skipper and Surch!) Mad ..."


... Smart a^se remarks? ... From whom? ... Moi??? ... AngelicWinkTongue

You think what ... making smart a^se remarks easy ar ... Naaaaah, cyberbreeder save smart a^se remarks for only special occassions ... not gonna waste them on you keh ... Wink

Cheers


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 4:18 PM

Post #94 of 161 (3025 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surch,

I like your blo*dy answer.....AngelicBlushCoolWink


Quote


With temperament however so much depends on how a pup is brought up, the environment, the owner ... the training methods ... etc ... all of which goes into making the personality of the adult dog, and complicates any assessment or comparison of temperament at birth, and the eventual temperament we see in the adult.



Somehow training and the early imprinting and socialization will definately affects the pup and how he/she will turn out to be.........but my understanding is that the NERVE can't be train....if it is there its there or if not there no matter what u do, how u train......the said dog will not make it to the above average.

Yes pls help to ask the working dog breeders for breeding trait, temperement and structure come second...........Tongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 10:33 PM

Post #95 of 161 (2998 views)
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Re: [boon] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon

I tend to agree with Surch here. I guess as i'm breeding show dogs, i'm putting structure and conformation as my priority. Similarly a person working his dog will be interested in the working ability of the sire & dam. For example a good tracking dog will obviously produce progeny that will have a better tracking ability. Obviously not ALL will carry his traits but surely one or two will take after dad and generally most will have a higher propensity to track.

For example i have a litter of 6 month old pups now. Their mum is a number 1 escape artist and can get out of anywhere. All these pups when put in a puppy pen aged 3 months old, learnt how to use thier muzzle to lift up the pen and slide out. Mad Now, this same puppy pen has been used to contain pups aged even 5 months previously and they never learned to do this. Wink So i guess certain behavioural traits have been passed down to these pups from their dam. So if a dachie is a good earth dog with higher prey drive than the average dachie then there is a higher chance that his progeny will carry those traits.

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 26, 2004, 10:56 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 26, 2004, 10:53 PM

Post #96 of 161 (2990 views)
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Re: [boon] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

  
What i mean for putting a working and a show is just an example...i'm never into show gsd and will not plan to in the foreseeable future....i just wanted your view on if the drivey male put to the calm and moderate female (could be a show or working line female) what will the pups turn out to be. Lets assume that the said dog/bitch has certain dogs in common in their pedigrees.

May be a 3,3, 3,4, 4-4 on some dogs/bitches.



Boon, from experience you will get a mixture. Some will have the character traits of their sire, some of their dam and some will be like neither!! One hopes that those falling into the neither category will carry the best of both traits....well if you're lucky you can get that, but you may just get something unlike both. You may also get a throw back to a grandparent or similar! But as i mentioned earlier, putting an animal which excels in one particular area (be it structural or behavioural) will to a certain degree positively amplify that particular trait in their progeny. By and large this stands true, but its not a hard and fast rule. What if all get throw backs to their grandparents or greatgrandparents? Then what? But you merely increase the likelihood of getting it.

From my limited knowledge seldom do people cross working dogs and show dogs as working people tend to think that most show dogs have too many structural exagerations which will impede their ability to work!! Over angulated hind and such will mean a dog will have to expend so much more energy than one with a straighter hind angulation. Show dogs have been moulded and exagerated for 'beauty' whilst working dogs are bred for 'function'.

Two geniuses don't make an Einstein! Tongue

But it can be a little different with working dogs originating from Europe where many who are accomplished show dogs, also have to excel at working ability and show that they are truly all round dogs capable of doing what they were bred for. So i guess if your show dogs orginate from Europe they do carry that propensity to work too as it has been maintained throughout time. My dachs ancestors on the otherhand have never been required to go badger hunting for quite sometime so that is why some will be naturally good earth dogs and others will stand at the burrow entrance and look at their owners with a face like "you go first lah" Tongue I do know that even with the requirement for European show dogs to carry working titles, there exists many purists who breed only pure working line dogs.

So the final question back to you wouuld be - WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE BY DOING THIS MATING???? Dogs who excel in working ability or show dogs??Sly

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 26, 2004, 10:55 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 10:55 PM

Post #97 of 161 (2987 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi LCK,

Thanz for sharing.....if i understand it right


Quote


For example a good tracking dog will obviously produce progeny that will have a better tracking ability. Obviously not ALL will carry his traits but surely one or two will take after dad and generally most will have a higher propensity to track.



if i 'decipher' it correctly Blush do u mean the pups produced will have more intense of the traits that either the sire/dam carry ?




In Reply To


For example i have a litter of 6 month old pups now. Their mum is a number 1 escape artist and can get out of anywhere. All these pups when put in a puppy pen aged 3 months old, learnt how to use thier muzzle to lift up the pen and slide out. Mad Now, this same puppy pen has been used to contain pups aged even 5 months previously and they never learned to do this. Wink So i guess certain behavioural traits have been passed down to these pups from their dam.



Yes i agree with u, the dam playing the most crucial and important roles of being raising up the pup since born, how the dam react to certain things will surely affects the pup's behaviour. from 6 to 8 weeks of age, pups learn how to be a dog and socialization takes place, the seperation of each individual must be taken place to prevent the pups from being to 'doggy' or too 'human' if the timing of separating them is not taken with care.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


sitinurhaliza
Novice


Oct 26, 2004, 11:07 PM

Post #98 of 161 (2977 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Malaysia boleh..hee....!!! Hi all, is this froum only in english, can we ask questions in Bahasa Malaysia??

CT


(This post was edited by sitinurhaliza on Oct 26, 2004, 11:29 PM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 11:36 PM

Post #99 of 161 (2965 views)
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Re: [surchinmy,LCK,skipper] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello sifu's Smile

Thanks very very very much for taking the time to answer my questions. Greatly appreciate it.

LCK,abt the list..what exactly are the PETA and animal libbers plan on doing that is so extreme till the breeds get extinct/in trouble? think i'll do more research on this tonight.

"This is evident even today ... we will select pups (bred from guard/protection breeds) with most heightened or sharp personalities & instincts (we call them drives) and put such selected dogs through concentrated & intensive training to develop, modify & redirect those instincts - but this time for the purpose of guarding/protecting us and to do so at our command."

That's why I LOVE training.Cool
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 11:40 PM

Post #100 of 161 (2963 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi uncle,


In Reply To
From my limited knowledge seldom do people cross working dogs and show dogs as working people tend to think that most show dogs have too many structural exagerations which will impede their ability to work!! Over angulated hind and such will mean a dog will have to expend so much more energy than one with a straighter hind angulation. Show dogs have been moulded and exagerated for 'beauty' whilst working dogs are bred for 'function'.



aiyah as i said earlier....this is just an example i don't plan and do not intend to cross a show and a working animal. It just an example. I have to agree with u, how on earth the banana croup dog can run 20 km for the korung test....may be will ended up with the broken legs and elbows and the only cure for this is to put additional 2 wheels at the back like a 'trishaw'. ShockedCool


In Reply To


So the final question back to you wouuld be - WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE BY DOING THIS MATING???? Dogs who excel in working ability or show dogs??Sly



Oh ini kah.... i just being curious (serious, no joke here) what will happen if the 2 said dogs mated.....wanted u and other sifus to shade some light for the newbie like me. As of now, i'm definately do not have enough knowledge for breeding the working dogs, further more, time, space and commitments.....

if breed for the shake of learning and get my hands dirty to learn more, most probably will ended up with a buch of some how 'agresive' pups for an averege pet owners.....

IF I EVER BREED (see some contradicting view here Pirate may be few more years down the road lah) I will try to have the dogs that line breed on some legend of GSDs that works/functions mostly in defend instead of prey....so hopefully this virtual breeding will give me 1 or 2 drivey of dog(s) and will then breed out with the DDR to get an average of everything in a dog and with the 'massive' head and bones that a typical DDR carry. (don get me wrong here, not those type of massive head in lab that looks like a rott)

Overly aggressive or drivey dogs is surely a REAL challenge for the handler and is generally not a beginner dog. For sport (even some sifus had hardtime controlling them for precise OB test under Schh and the out after the attack). So an average dog with moderate defence and little bit above average of prey will just 'click' for the sport.

Too much prey or 100% on prey will not bring u up to national level.....a typical (may be most of it) german type of sport dogs (prey monster or locked in prey).

So again, moderate in everything (my taste for the sport dog not PP) will be just good, train and work in prey and if the helper push further, with some civil edge that willing take the fight in defence mode..........

But nothing worth mentioning and quoting here (just my thought).....until i title my dog and hopefully few years down the road with the knowledge i gained throughtout the years of getting my arm sore/sweat/dirty...with a little bit of luck i can have 1 dog that breed my be and title my be.

Hope this answer ur question for my ultimate goal.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 26, 2004, 11:55 PM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 11:45 PM

Post #101 of 161 (3160 views)
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Re: [skipper,LCK,surchinmy,All] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

"I tend to believe if a Rottie cower in fear is not a good representative of the breed. Just like any other breeds they have their problems as well perhaps from bad breeding. Therefore, a responsible breeder will never use such dog in their breeding program. "

How would a show judge know that if in a show,nothing is tested to show whether or not he would run in fear? Unless, the part where the judge comes up to feel the bones/structure is considered a mild courage test?Crazy

Also....*sigh*...guess you're right abt the whole "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"....very personal.. Unsure
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 26, 2004, 11:51 PM

Post #102 of 161 (3156 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

" ... I would also like to sum up the aspiration judge's thought! To be a good judge, one should not only be able to spot the quality of a dog but able to interpret it in words and writing. It is an in-born talent to see a good dog and to be able to breed them to carry on the legacy of excellence, of course text books and experience counts too (what we call an eye for a dog, which I think is pretty much in-born and I know text books judges and cyber-breeder cum judges who are in its own way very educational!) but most importantly, to be able to interpret the standards of each breeds and express your point of view as a judge is utmost importance. That in itself shows your fluency in the breed you judge and the confident attached to it. The in-born talent, well, that's a talent that's cannot be incorporated! That is why those talent and experience if not nurtured by our club, MKA and if a judge needs a third party to sum up for him to express his or her points of views, all is ruined!!! If one is qualify as a judge, or even been considered at the 'call-off' All Breed Championship Show in Malacca show end of the year, and needs a 3rd party who have bred nothing to back up his explanation and statement, I am disgusted! I think he or she will be able to explain soundess, type and other required jargons used ever so frequent in the breeding or showing of dogs by themselves and be confident with it! ... Anyway, the strong words are not meant to personal attack anyone but I hope one should learn up quickly and be a good future judge otherwise, one should just quit ..."

If the above is the post you are referring to – then Riccaval, you are absolutely correct to pay no attention to it … BECAUSE whoever wrote that post hasn’t got a clue as to what he/she is talking about and is certainly & completely clueless as to - what is required of a “good” judge …
That post is is futile in concept, comprehension and execution …

For example:

*** What on earth has inborn talent as in “eye for a dog” got to do with the qualities of a judge? … Natural talent helps, but to say that only those with such inborn talent are qualified to be a judge - is total nonsense.

*** What on earth has inborn talent as in “eye for a dog” have to do with quality of “words & writing” … There are many people with inborn talent who cannot communicate effectively to save their lives …

*** What has “nurturing of MKA” got to do with the whole issue? … The only thing that MKA does (as with all dog associations) is provide the means to becoming a judge (and maybe hold come classes) but that is all … A person (his upbringing, his/her family & friends) provide all the essential nurturing & support system required to make a person whole enough to don the mantle of judgeship ...

*** As for “words & writing” being so critical that unless it is possessed – “all is ruined” … that is the biggest crap pile I have seen for a while ...

The reality is ... judges don’t suddenly become super-humans just because they are appointed or acquire the title “judge” … Judges remain people with all the frailties of the human race ... Which is why ... of all qualities in a judge - the most desired is “integrity” …

And “integrity” is composed of many elements, not least of which are:

(a) Honesty ... Honesty to others and with the self …

And honesty with self - is comprised of (i) the self realisation that a judge is not the font of all knowledge ... (ii) the ability and willingness to listen to others, and consider all relevant points of view … (c) last but not least, the courage and willingness to admit one’s own shortcomings and mistakes ... and seek improvement.

(b) Courage ... to do that which is correct, to the best of one's ability ... without fear or favour.

As for other qualities ... such as "understanding & knowledge" of the relevant area or field in which judging is practiced ... or the ability to communicate with language ... these are important too - BUT these are elements that can be learnt & improved upon ... and a judge with the integrity (described above) will seek to learn and improve continuously ... understanding that even as a judge, he/she is not the font of all knowledge ...

So when is all ruined? ... All is ruined when a judge does not possess integrity ... all is also lost if a judge possesses the self inflated ego exhibited by the person who wrote the offending post.

Judges ought to be more leaned than witty, more reverent than plausible, and more advised than confident. Above all things, integrity is their portion and proper virtue. Francis Bacon (1889 - 1981)

In your discussion with LCK & Skipper - I for one, respect the manner in which you simply admitted mistake and moved on ... integrity ...

And I also think you reacted/responded to the specious attack in that post with class ... you have been real "cool" man ... Smile ...

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 27, 2004, 12:03 AM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 26, 2004, 11:56 PM

Post #103 of 161 (3150 views)
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Re: [sitinurhaliza] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

oh lovely....my boy luuuuuve cats so much......what a wonderful and tasty dinner Tongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 27, 2004, 12:03 AM

Post #104 of 161 (3142 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

May be i can answer a bit for u here Blush


In Reply To


How would a show judge know that if in a show,nothing is tested to show whether or not he would run in fear? Unless, the part where the judge comes up to feel the bones/structure is considered a mild courage test?Crazy



To fight or flight - in europe...dogs need to get themselves qualify for the BST before they can stand at stud....so the courage test, temperement and etc are covered in the breed survey. May be Bookie or Poll can help u here...am not a rott person....

When the judge (some of the european judges) when come into judging the specialty, they normally will not toch the jaw of the rotts, only the body/bones and etc. The handler should open up the mouth of the dog for evaluation. And most important this is not a courage test at all.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 27, 2004, 12:19 AM

Post #105 of 161 (3125 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi LCK,

Sorry overlook this one....


In Reply To


What if all get throw backs to their grandparents or greatgrandparents? Then what? But you merely increase the likelihood of getting it.



I totally understand what u r trying to convey....out of the 5 generations pedigree, namely out of 31 animals in the sire and another 31 animals in the dam, each said dog has about 3.225% of reproducing itself (assumed that no linebreed in the common ancestry. And the simple math calculation go on and on depending on the SAME dog(s) reoccurences in the pedigree. Sometime, mother nature is just too unpredictable.......1+1 in dog breeding will not always = 2..... do u agree with me ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 27, 2004, 12:24 AM

Post #106 of 161 (3120 views)
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Re: [boon] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon ...

Think you are going back to your original question ... If you breed a dog with good temperament with another dog with good temperament - Are you going to get progeny with even BETTER temperament? ...

I use the word temperament because (i) I am more familiar with that word ... and because (ii) the word temperament will cover the various aspects that breeders breed for - whether it's for conformation show, trial or work.

Collectively our replies (as summrised):

(A) ... If you breed Dog A with good temperament with Dog B of moderate temperament ... you are likely to get progeny with a whole range of temperaments, but possibly on the average - you will get progeny with better temperament than Dog B, and maybe as good as Dog A. But no one can say for certain that you will progeny with better temperament than Dog A.

(B) ... If you breed Dog A with good temperament with Dog B also with good temperament ... Will you "double up" and get progeny with better temperament than Dog A or B? ... Errr ... don't think we know the answer to that one ... I have some doubt that you can double up on temperament, like conformation elements, but not sure lar (only guessing) ... This is the part you need to check with exprienced working dog breeders and hear what they have to say.

But before you start breeding - read the post that LCK made earlier ...

Also as pointed out by LCK ... if you are serious about breeding for dogs for work/trials ... but wish to moderate drive ... I don't think the solution is as simple as breeding a working dog with a show dog ... A bit like apple & orange ... then you may get some strange results ... Crazy ...

One very successful breeder of working Labs in UK, told me that there are 2 things he will not do ... (a) he will not sell/give a working Lab to a non-working family and (b) he will not breed his working line with any show line.

Cheers


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 12:25 AM

Post #107 of 161 (3118 views)
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Re: [sitinurhaliza] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Malaysia boleh..hee....!!! Hi all, is this froum only in english, can we ask questions in Bahasa Malaysia??

CT



Hi Siti

Can i have your autograph if you're THE Siti?? Wink

I'm sure you can ask questions in Bahasa but please don't expect an answer in Bahasa from me, as my Bahasa dates back to standard 5 level, after which my medium of education was in English. Nowadays my Bahasa is limited to ordering food at mamak stalls, talking to my maid and trying to sweet talk traffic policemen Laugh Ironically i'm a linguist and read and write fluent Spanish and Portuguese Crazy

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 27, 2004, 12:28 AM

Post #108 of 161 (3115 views)
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Re: [sitinurhaliza] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi ...

For sure can use Bahasa ... but tolong also lar ... and throw in some English too ...

Cheers


boon
Doggyman


Oct 27, 2004, 12:32 AM

Post #109 of 161 (3111 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Aiks....no lah LCK replied me so i just continue the discussion there loh...not repeating or going back lah......anyway thanz for the summary.Cool


But before you start breeding - read the post that LCK made earlier ...
Sudah baca and will print out and put in my library


Also as pointed out by LCK ... if you are serious about breeding for dogs for work/trials ... but wish to moderate drive ... I don't think the solution is as simple as breeding a working dog with a show dog ... A bit like apple & orange ... then you may get some strange results ... Crazy ...

Already explained in my reply to LCK....just an example....no actual breeding has been taken place here....and banana croup just isn't my cup of tea....don get me wrong lah....aiyoyoh...gussed my Ingelish ah got propulem lah....Blush

One very successful breeder of working Labs in UK, told me that there are 2 things he will not do ... (a) he will not sell/give a working Lab to a non-working family and (b) he will not breed his working line with any show line.


Heheheh Laugh A) if he/she do this will be a disaster for a working GSD, will ended up on top of the vet table or got bitten some one and or in shelter.....this is not only a WASTE of the good working creature but a SIN to the innocent one.

B)Field and Bench simply won't click, and from what i learned so far, the genes tend to get dominated by the Field type. Meaning the field type gene is stronger than the bench type. Don ask me y lah...saya pun tak tau......CrazyTongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 27, 2004, 12:39 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 27, 2004, 12:34 AM

Post #110 of 161 (3109 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Aaah ... yes ... in a dog conformation show ... the judge has to make his/her decision on temperament when the judge comes into contact with the dog in the show ring.

A dog conformation show is very different in concept & intention from other forms of competition such as field trials or Shutz events ...

Cheers


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 27, 2004, 12:37 AM

Post #111 of 161 (3108 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchin,

Your macro view of the whole judging issue is great and your points on breeding champions, i was not expecting a literal interpretation and expecting you practise a bit of mischief rule. But unfortunately, my message across does not go down well with you, I feel sorry for that! What i said, I think you understand, it sometimes requires someone that have simmer themselves long enough in the show rings, overseas exposure and breeding to understand the whole show criteria to its absolute requirement. I said talent=eye for dog, that on my opinion is a talent which is in-born, ultimately, it is experience and understanding of each and every breeds that maketh a good judge! I meant no insult to Derrick as I have sent private message to him but to you, I hope you can 'cool' down a bit and not let your temper flares, I thought calling you a cyber breeder is a compliment, well, if you dislike it, I withdraw lor...even in court, one barrister can also withdraw their statement what! Relek ah bradder!

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 1:13 AM

Post #112 of 161 (3091 views)
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Re: [boon] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To


For example i have a litter of 6 month old pups now. Their mum is a number 1 escape artist and can get out of anywhere. All these pups when put in a puppy pen aged 3 months old, learnt how to use thier muzzle to lift up the pen and slide out. Mad Now, this same puppy pen has been used to contain pups aged even 5 months previously and they never learned to do this. Wink So i guess certain behavioural traits have been passed down to these pups from their dam.



Yes i agree with u, the dam playing the most crucial and important roles of being raising up the pup since born, how the dam react to certain things will surely affects the pup's behaviour. from 6 to 8 weeks of age, pups learn how to be a dog and socialization takes place, the seperation of each individual must be taken place to prevent the pups from being to 'doggy' or too 'human' if the timing of separating them is not taken with care.



I do agree with you that by and large the dam plays a crucial role in developing the temperaments of her pups. If she is a nervous shy mother the pups can follow suit, but i think in the case mentioned above it wasn't her teaching them how to do it that they learnt, but it was more of an inbuilt characteristic. As a mother she really was excellent and never tried to escape as her pups were so important to her and she got up to her usual tricks. Tongue

But like her, her pups are also exhibit very dominant traits. Their mum is the pack leader amongst all my dogs and her pups are similar. Her 5 month old pup could pin down a one year old dog bec he irritated him! You'd expect the pup to take the sh!t, but these lot like their mum take no sh!t. Pirate And bear in mind that their mother was NEVER agressive or dominant with her pups but actually allowed them to get away with murder! One would think that a dominant mother would display dominant traits towards her pups and thus they learn it, but not so in this case. The drive to be Alpha dog is inborn! Unsure

Thanks also for your explanation of your "hypothetical breeding". I wasn't expecting an anwser from you as my question was rhetorical, but i did enjoy reading the reply!! You like your dogs GARANG!!! Laugh

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 1:21 AM

Post #113 of 161 (3085 views)
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Re: [boon] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I totally understand what u r trying to convey....out of the 5 generations pedigree, namely out of 31 animals in the sire and another 31 animals in the dam, each said dog has about 3.225% of reproducing itself (assumed that no linebreed in the common ancestry. And the simple math calculation go on and on depending on the SAME dog(s) reoccurences in the pedigree. Sometime, mother nature is just too unpredictable.......1+1 in dog breeding will not always = 2..... do u agree with me ?



Agreed dude. That's what makes breeding interesting. It's not an exact science!! A bit like dog judging! But let's not go there as that is a different thread already! Wink

I have several books about genetics and when i first started used to "TRY" to go through and understand it, as i thought it would help me to be a better breeder. In the end i slowly learnt was that the best textbook was experience and also experience of others. Tongue Genetics is a science and is very predictable when it comes to things like colours, recessives, dominants and more technical things like that. As far as temperament and so on it can never be 100% accuately predicted! So i just learnt and am still learning how colour genetics work and color determination happens in my chosen breed, but each time i think i have something sorted out in my head and "understooded" i have a litter which will disprove the theory! MadCrazyUnsureTongue

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


sitinurhaliza
Novice


Oct 27, 2004, 1:28 AM

Post #114 of 161 (3076 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Surchinmy, what is that meaning ? Your name, you not Malaysian too? I read your writing, very garang! Why my writing all delete away? I don't understand? I ask for nasihat on my neighbour kahwin very fierce black dog and puppies also very garang but why my writing in the box delete? Why your box no dog picture? Is this forum anti cat owner? Please help?

C-Tea


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 1:28 AM

Post #115 of 161 (3074 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

....because whoever wrote that post......

Yeah i have my doubts about whether that post was actually written by the purpoted poster or if it was actually written by someone else...maybe a locter??? Tongue


Judges ought to be more leaned than witty, more reverent than plausible, and more advised than confident. Above all things, integrity is their portion and proper virtue. Francis Bacon (1889 - 1981)

I love this quote!!! Good one Wink

In your discussion with LCK & Skipper - I for one, respect the manner in which you simply admitted mistake and moved on ... integrity ...

And I also think you reacted/responded to the specious attack in that post with class ... you have been real "cool" man ... Smile ...

Well said and yes Derrick, you very bravely admitted you had learnt something and that takes courage and you're not someone who wants "face." So good on you - you will make a good judge, in my humble opinion, as you're prepared to learn and admit mistakes!


Cheers
LCK Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 27, 2004, 2:07 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 1:52 AM

Post #116 of 161 (3062 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Surchinmy, what is that meaning ? Your name, you not Malaysian too? I read your writing, very garang! Why my writing all delete away? I don't understand? I ask for nasihat on my neighbour kahwin very fierce black dog and puppies also very garang but why my writing in the box delete? Why your box no dog picture? Is this forum anti cat owner? Please help?

C-Tea


Aiyoh C-Tea. You ingat kita lahir semalam di hospital in SUBANG JAYA kah like you?? You from which hutan? don't you know that Surchinmy is a very popular English name and well known person in malaysian history. Our surchinmy's great grandfather (dam side) was the founder of Batang Kali and other important places like that. Malu lah you say you're a Malaysian but know nothing about important people like Surchinmy 1. Statue of Surchinmy's great grandfather is on display along the boulevard in Putrajaya and also in Kota Kemuning.Blush

Hey C-tea, what sort of GANdog you own? Obviously you must own a CHAMPEAN GANdog right that you joined our forum today and straight came to GANdog forum....no wonder your posts removed. Lucky not your clothes removed or else we will have a big shock when we see you have a little brother!! Tongue

Also ah C-tea mai-b you not familiar with how forums work - nobody is garang. Even our most garang member is now a mild mannered gentleman. We exchange ideas and post thoughts. If people think you talk Kok then they may tell you so. Most of us here are used to having our opinions challenged so know how to respond back. No one takes it personally lah. If they do, then time they grew up and not be so sensitive. In any case if you not sure if someone is garang towards you, you can ask people like Surchinmy or me privately and we advise you lor. This is what makes a forum fun as we discuss and argue certain things out in an intelligent manner and don't go into a frenzy. If you kena hantam then you justify and stand by your post lah. If you don't then sure you kena hantam more. But it's not bad hantam - just all in jest and for the sake of discussion. Not personal as some assume!

Anyway let's not waste time ok, we go for buka puasa at Holiday Villa SUBANG and then go down to Blue Apple for Char Kuat? Angelic Like you i also like pussy cats.....Meow! Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 27, 2004, 1:54 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 27, 2004, 2:14 AM

Post #117 of 161 (3051 views)
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Re: [LCK, Riccaval, skipper] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

*Big laughs* ... TongueTongueCool ...

" ... Yeah i have my doubts about whether that post was actually written by the purpoted poster or if it was actually written by someone else...maybe a locter??? Tongue ..."

Dunno lar what profession ... and dun care also ... maybe professional sycophant.

Kalau orang terpelajar ... then kesian sugguh ... Sampai suruh orang jangan baca his post literally ... Kalau cannot baca literally, then how lar to baca ... baca side-ways kar? ... or dari belakang depan? ...

And don't get me started on the "mischief rule" ... Ahyooh ... kalau tak faham or tak pasti, jangan tulis lar ... only tunjuk dengan terang teliti ignorance diri sindiri - sampai sampai cannot hide ...

And what this ... simmering in show rings, with overseas exposure, pulak? ... Sebenarnya - you think the writer of post been to Crufts or not? ... If not, dun lar simmer simmer ... sampai jadi bubur cha cha how?

Cheers mate ... Smile

PS ... this one is good for consideration:

" ... A man is what he is, not what men say he is. His character no man can touch. his character is what he is before his God and his Judge; and only he himself can damage that. His repuration is what men say he is. That can be damaged; but reputation is for time, character is for eternity ..." John Ballantine Gough


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 2:17 AM

Post #118 of 161 (3048 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Surch - when are you posting the ingerish translation for black mat salleh's like me??? LOLMad

Once again - loved the quote!! Wink

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 27, 2004, 2:27 AM

Post #119 of 161 (3042 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

"... don't you know that Surchinmy is a very popular English name and well known person in malaysian history. Our surchinmy's great grandfather (dam side) was the founder of Batang Kali and other important places like that ... Statue of Surchinmy's great grandfather is on display along the boulevard in Putrajaya and also in Kota Kemuning"

Ah yoh yoh ... kadavaleh ... that one Wira Si Urchin from Indonesia mar ... Sumatra side ... oso got progeny in Acheh ... not Putrajaya lar ...

You cannot simply simply say oni ... and lagi the statue in Kota Kemuning aledy tear down for building the houses mar ... no more there ... Smile ...


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 27, 2004, 2:29 AM

Post #120 of 161 (3041 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

You go ask C-Tea to translate lar ... Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 27, 2004, 2:29 AM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 27, 2004, 4:07 AM

Post #121 of 161 (3031 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Clangan; I say "Vice-versa"

Hello Surchin and LCK,

deleted****

Thanks for your advice..... You have spoken and I hear you on my left mind! LCK, you still have me at the right mind!!! Thank you for your english lesson and add-vice!!


"Words are migthier than the sword"


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 27, 2004, 4:48 AM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 27, 2004, 4:31 AM

Post #122 of 161 (3026 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

In the spirit of puppy.com I am friendly.....Wink

Clangan


timchan
Member


Oct 27, 2004, 6:05 AM

Post #123 of 161 (3012 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

CoolHi everyone,

With all due respect, I do not find it fruitful to be proving each other wrong or right here. The gruesome truth remains the same. With the good for nothing MKA cert, I still cannot believe that a pup in question comes from Champion lineage although it is stated on the cert that every single sire or dam is a SUPER CHAMPION.

Why believe in titles given by weak human beings?

I heard you can even buy certs now. Certs filled with CHs perhaps?

Cheers!Smile


boon
Doggyman


Oct 27, 2004, 6:11 AM

Post #124 of 161 (3011 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi LCK,


In Reply To


So i just learnt and am still learning how colour genetics work and color determination happens in my chosen breed, but each time i think i have something sorted out in my head and "understooded" i have a litter which will disprove the theory! MadCrazyUnsureTongue



Heheheh not sure about ur chosen breed, but for lab u can get the DNA test from VETGEN.....then u can know what color they do carry and the recessive one as well......for a working GSD....i don really care about it.....



In Reply To


Thanks also for your explanation of your "hypothetical breeding". I wasn't expecting an anwser from you as my question was rhetorical, but i did enjoy reading the reply!! You like your dogs GARANG!!! Laugh



Aiyoh...tak boleh tahan ru lah......hope one day when we meet we can actually share about breeding and experience (and i hope by that time i have something behind me rather just talking KOK like now Blush).

I like GARANG dogs that have a super stable temperement, which mean i can 'turn it' on and off Cool......most of the poeple tend to think that schh dogs are garang dogs and must be dangerous, actually they're NOT....they're can behave like a lab, as friendly as a lab and a golden's temperement when in dar rumah with bayi or kanak-kanak.

Schh dogs are not dangerous dogs lah

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 27, 2004, 7:11 AM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 27, 2004, 6:20 AM

Post #125 of 161 (3008 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I heard you can even buy certs now. Certs filled with CHs perhaps?

how true........:D u can even get the legend of each breeds all in that paper....i'm sure this not only happen to GR, but rotts, gsd and others as well....so y worry about paper....at the end of the day 'Show me your dog and i'll tell what manner of man you are'

Quote from Capt Max vom Stephanitz in his book GSD in Word & Picture

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 7:35 PM

Post #126 of 161 (2900 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
CoolHi everyone,

With the good for nothing MKA cert, I still cannot believe that a pup in question comes from Champion lineage although it is stated on the cert that every single sire or dam is a SUPER CHAMPION.

Why believe in titles given by weak human beings?

Cheers!Smile



Hi Tim

Coming from Champion lineage doesn't mean the progeny will be champions as well. The faster you get to grips with that notion, the faster you will not be disappointed. When i breed a litter of say 7 pups i may sell 5 off as "pets" and 2 will make the cut as "show dogs." YEs admittedly sometimes the percentage will be higher but it all depends and can never be predicted. Coming from champion lineage just "increases" your chances of getting a dog that could become or produce a champion, but it doesn't guarantee it. Just in the same we we are all homosapiens but some of us are super athletes and others are genius. All carry the same number of chromosomes, etc. Tongue

the cert gurantees you nothing and no where on it do they say your dog will be a champion! Wink The cert is a RECORD of the lineage of your dog. It states the information about your dogs, and then its ancestry. What were you expecting your MKA cert to do?

I always tell my Pet buyers that i'm selling them a healthy well adjusted pet from good breeding but it doesn't mean that just bec their sire and dams are champions means they will become champions. Maybe you have been misled? Crazy

LCK Cool

p.s. As for "titles given by weak human beings" us dog show people know when we enter a show that we are subject to the opinion of that particular judge on that particular day. Different day different judge the result can be very different. Same judge, different day the dog may not win the same as the last time! That's what makes it interesting. We enter the shows for their opinion and that is exactly what we get at the end of the day like it or not. But i know for sure that whatever the results i still take home the best dog! As an exhibitor i might not value the opinion of every single judge, but there will be those whose opinion i do value. Are they also weak? I doubt it. You sound like a very disgruntled exhibitor.
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 27, 2004, 7:47 PM)


kathleen.tay
Canine Addict


Oct 28, 2004, 3:24 AM

Post #127 of 161 (2869 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Uncle Gan Tongue,

Got something to ask you lar... tried to search but cant get any answer. My GR, Angel has some birth mark on and at the back of her tongue. And if i am ever gonna show her, will this be consider as a defect ? The mark is actually black in colour and it seems to be darker when she is tired and panting. When she is in relax mode, it's lighter.

Thanks.
A Dog Never Lies About Love


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 28, 2004, 8:58 AM

Post #128 of 161 (2850 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yo LCK ...

What's up doc? ... Been busy busy today, no time to drop in ... looks like it's been quiet here hor ... Tongue ...

Back to the question at hand ...

timchan posted: " ... With the good for nothing MKA cert, I still cannot believe that a pup in question comes from Champion lineage although it is stated on the cert that every single sire or dam is a SUPER CHAMPION.
..."


Hmmm ... maybe we should ask timchan what he thinks is wrong with the "pup in question" ... ?

And how about telling us why a foundation bitch is very important? ... And the criteria for choosing foundation dogs.

Cheers


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 8:30 PM

Post #129 of 161 (2834 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yo LCK ...

What's up doc? ... Been busy busy today, no time to drop in ... looks like it's been quiet here hor ... Tongue ...

Hey Surch - i thought you had also been silenced and pestered not to participate on this thread!!! Tongue Even our expiring judge Uncle Derrick has been so silent. Stock market must be up Laugh I was also very busy for the latter half of the day - looks like everyone else is also BUSY LOR CrazyAngelicUnsurePirate Will await Tim Chan's reply before posting more. LCK Cool P.s. perhaps we should continue this breeding thread on another part of the forum as a separate thread and leave the Gandog group for those genuine Gandoggers. JMHO Unsure
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 28, 2004, 8:37 PM

Post #130 of 161 (2832 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

...TongueLaughWink ... When a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears to hear - is there sound?

... yeah ... let's move ... start a new thread ... and those interested can join if they wish ...

I am waiting for replies from breeder friends re: Boon's question on whether one can reasonably expect temperament to "doubled-up" in similar manner as with conformation elements.

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 28, 2004, 8:41 PM)


timchan
Member


Oct 28, 2004, 8:55 PM

Post #131 of 161 (2829 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool Hi LCK!

I like to see the kennels behind your house...very nice! Always take a glance when I am on the LRT heading to Paramount...bwahahahahahaha.......

And I believe that I have seen you on the showring and must admit you have the best and "classy" pooches on show!

What I am trying to say is that, at the dawn of the new millenium, we cannot even trust what the cert is telling us. I do not mind having a pup with a cert filled with CHs or not. All I am asking is that the names stated on the certs are genuine. At this point, I do not even have the privilege to have a genuine cert. I hope you get what I mean.

Maybe it is because of these certs, one can get CHAMPIONS out of NON CHAMPIONS or vice versa because the certs are inaccurate. At the moment, I believe that we can only judge based on our instincts without even looking at the cert. And for crying out loud! I would really hope that these breeders do not raise the prices of so called Champion Line dogs since the certs are inaccurate. And there is no guarantees whether they can become or produce champs.

At the end of the day we should be proud of our achievements of raising a good dog...I would rather believe that each pooch is a CHAMP in its own rights...and not merely because someone place a CH in front of its name...

I truly understand and accept the fact that each dog/bitch cannot promise you show quality pups.

Cheers everyone...Wink


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:22 PM

Post #132 of 161 (2826 views)
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Re: [kathleen.tay] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kathleen,

The mark at the tougue whether on the top or the flip side, it is OK, GR with good pigmentation usually has dark mark on their tongue. When she is hot and panting, the mark seems bigger and obvious, that's only natural because of the concentration of blood vessels releasing heat at the surface of the tongue, remember, dogs sweat through their tongue and paws. Angel do look a lot like its sire! I am sure she can move very well! She is from the Rush Hill line and the dam is from Sunshine hill which are also known for their great movement! I am sure she has good forechest and good front angulation. Hope this help!

Clangan


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:39 PM

Post #133 of 161 (2822 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Tim,

Since you ask this question to everyone but directed it to me, I will take the liberty to answer your question! As I have tiredlessly mentioned in a number of posting already, a champion title is earn through a set of criteria. Yes, champions breeding does not always produce champions and so on but the chances of obtaining a good champion dog form good champion breeding will definitely give you a higher chances of obtaining one ...... But to question the integrity of the cert, I think this is why looking for a reputable breeder is important, one who hold the great lineage at heart. At the same time, may breeders faced numerous problems regarding the transfer of pedigree and so on, so mis-management of registration do happen. At the end of all these, I think, if you do not think that MKA pedigree is worth anything and you do not agree with the higher price tag tagged on the good champion breedings, then, I think the next best alternative is to buy dogs of no pedigree, that way, you achieve your satisfaction and I am sure it will be cheaper in price! Hope this help!

clangan


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:40 PM

Post #134 of 161 (2820 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Everytime I think of you, I think of your B'day songs, Somehow, it softens me down , I will let you be, you are at my right mind! Others, I have a reputation to up keep! "To breed champion GR & Boxers?!?" Unsure



"Beautiful Boxer, savadikap!"


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 28, 2004, 10:14 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:59 PM

Post #135 of 161 (2813 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Alamak, move on? Nomadic ways? Gypsy always get hunted down!!! It is a pity I will lose you in this thread, a person with great cyber knowledge!Wink

clangan


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 28, 2004, 10:24 PM

Post #136 of 161 (2793 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue Even our expiring judge Uncle Derrick has been so silent. Stock market must be up [laugh

LaughLaughdehhh tambi, belum expired lah.
Thanks for reminding me where I earn my keep...,not breeding/trading dogs...LOL

After the kind words from you and surchin....i tot enuff saidBlush......if i say somemore takut kena exterminated macham C-Tea hahahaha.

Also somebirdie told me goin to have war in this thread...so better butt out if not macham kanchil kena trampled by the elephonWink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 11:17 PM

Post #137 of 161 (2777 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Also somebirdie told me goin to have war in this thread...so better butt out if not macham kanchil kena trampled by the elephonWink



And that got you scared? Crazy I don't think you are that kind.

Funny how not everyone can use their brains to answer back Tongue I remember one poster saying that the pen is mightier than the sword, but i also wonder whether that poster truly believes in the quote or is just using the quote as convenient alibi while making threats over sms. Pirate I wasn't born yesterday Wink

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 28, 2004, 11:26 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 11:29 PM

Post #138 of 161 (2769 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Someone will be quiet soon, I guaratee that!!!!




Gan,

Are you threatening me or Surchin?

Gopi
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 28, 2004, 11:31 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 11:55 PM

Post #139 of 161 (2761 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Cool Hi LCK!

I like to see the kennels behind your house...very nice! Always take a glance when I am on the LRT heading to Paramount...bwahahahahahaha.......

What's so hysterically funny about my kennels?? Or are you just trying to inform me you know where i live?

And I believe that I have seen you on the showring and must admit you have the best and "classy" pooches on show!

Not so - many others are classier as they win a lot more and at higher level. Incidentally what breed do you keep? Do you show? Is Tim Chan your real name or a pseudonym? You must be an active MKA member as you seem to have so many grouses against them.

What I am trying to say is that, at the dawn of the new millenium, we cannot even trust what the cert is telling us. I do not mind having a pup with a cert filled with CHs or not. All I am asking is that the names stated on the certs are genuine. At this point, I do not even have the privilege to have a genuine cert. I hope you get what I mean.

How would the know such things?? It is us breeders who are supposed to tell the accurately whcih stud dog and bitch that we have mated together. So how can the be blamed? Why are you so certain that the certs are so innaccurate? Mine are always spot on and are correct. What happened to yours? And i hate to repeat myself again but it is perfectly possible to get Champions out of non-champion parents. We have already covered this topic at the beginning of this entire thread. Prices for pups are something individual. If someone wants to charge RM20,000 for a puppy then so be it as that is their perogative and if they have a buyer willing to pay that price then good for them. Hopefully they invite me to jin them for Saks Fin dinner. There are no guidelines on how much people should or shouldn't charge.

Maybe it is because of these certs, one can get CHAMPIONS out of NON CHAMPIONS or vice versa because the certs are inaccurate. At the moment, I believe that we can only judge based on our instincts without even looking at the cert. And for crying out loud! I would really hope that these breeders do not raise the prices of so called Champion Line dogs since the certs are inaccurate. And there is no guarantees whether they can become or produce champs.

At the end of the day we should be proud of our achievements of raising a good dog...I would rather believe that each pooch is a CHAMP in its own rights...and not merely because someone place a CH in front of its name...

Yes if you are a pet owner i truly agree with you as i said before that whatever happens at the dog show i still go home with the BEST dog. So every dog, pet or show dog is precious. But in the competitive showring, us breeders and exhibitors are after accolades given by judges. So whilst we may or may not always agree with their decisions we are the ones that subject our dogs to their scrutiny and nobody forces us to. So we either like it or lump it.

I truly understand and accept the fact that each dog/bitch cannot promise you show quality pups.

Amen!

Cheers everyone...Wink

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 28, 2004, 11:56 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 29, 2004, 12:06 AM

Post #140 of 161 (2754 views)
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Re: [clangan] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
By Clangan:

" ... Someone will be quiet soon, I guaratee that!!!! ..."

" ... Gypsy always get hunted down!!! ..."



TongueCoolLaugh

... If got something to say ... POST IT ... so that we can all read what you have to say ...

Tongue


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 29, 2004, 12:13 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 12:36 AM

Post #141 of 161 (2734 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Everytime I think of you, I think of your B'day songs, Somehow, it softens me down , I will let you be, you are at my right mind! Others, I have a reputation to up keep! "To breed champion GR & Boxers?!?" Unsure



"Beautiful Boxer, savadikap!"



Gan

So my singing skills has got me off the hook it would appear, but obviously surchin is still on the hook? Is that correct? Please do correct me if i'm wrong.

And please clarify what you mean by "reputation to up keep" and "to breed champion GR & Boxers?" I'm confused.

Gopi
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 29, 2004, 12:51 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 12:46 AM

Post #142 of 161 (2717 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... yeah ... let's move ... start a new thread ... and those interested can join if they wish ...

I am waiting for replies from breeder friends re: Boon's question on whether one can reasonably expect temperament to "doubled-up" in similar manner as with conformation elements.

Cheers



Actually on second thoughts let's stay. Might be confusing for anyone who has been following this thread. BTW how long do the moderators keep all the posts for? Indefinitely? Or delete after a while??

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 29, 2004, 1:05 AM

Post #143 of 161 (2700 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 29, 2004, 1:13 AM

Post #144 of 161 (2696 views)
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Re: [surchinmy, LCK] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the spirit of puppy.com friendly manner, we should share knowledge!! I do not think anyone should threaten anyone, that's it! Bad for karma!!! Lets get back on dogs issue!

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 2:03 AM

Post #145 of 161 (2674 views)
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Re: [clangan] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the spirit of puppy.com friendly manner, we should share knowledge!! I do not think anyone should threaten anyone, that's it! Bad for karma!!! Lets get back on dogs issue!




Glad to read the above post and thank you for clarifying that. TongueWinkSly


LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 29, 2004, 3:08 AM

Post #146 of 161 (2664 views)
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Re: [clangan] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post

"... In the spirit of puppy.com friendly manner, we should share knowledge!! I do not think anyone should threaten anyone, that's it! Bad for karma!!! Lets get back on dogs issue! - ..."


This I agree ... Smile ... life is difficult enough - no need for bad karma ...

Cheers


timchan
Member


Oct 29, 2004, 4:40 AM

Post #147 of 161 (2644 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

CoolHi LCK,

Who would use their real name in pup.com? I would fear for my life as I do not know who I am conversing with...This is a "chat-room" and no one uses their real name...

This will be my last post in this thread as I do not think we're heading anywhere....

My last line goes....to my opinion, MKA is responsible to verify and authenticate each and every litter that is being registered. I believe that they used to do that even in the small town of IPOH. MKA members would drop by to look at the pups and their parents. Well, if you want to have a good organization, why not take all the proper procedures into account?

If another Kennel Association comes into place (which I do hope in near future) and give a stiff competition to MKA by just upholding a little more integrity and audit on their litter registration itself, I believe that MKA is going to have a run for their money!

Adios Amigos!Wink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 8:24 PM

Post #148 of 161 (2615 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


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CoolHi LCK,

Who would use their real name in pup.com? I would fear for my life as I do not know who I am conversing with...This is a "chat-room" and no one uses their real name...
I use my real name and have done so all along. Most people know who i am. My kennel name is posted. Only those who have things to hide or are mischief makers have good reason to hide their true identity. This is a doggy forum not a "dating forum" so no chance of your wife catching you trying to find a girlfriend. Or am i the only one who uses my real name and everyone else is a puff of smoke in cyber space.
This will be my last post in this thread as I do not think we're heading anywhere.... I guess you still can't accept my point so your solution is to end it. I guess it will mean we won't have any major arguments! Laugh

My last line goes....to my opinion, MKA is responsible to verify and authenticate each and every litter that is being registered. I believe that they used to do that even in the small town of IPOH. MKA members would drop by to look at the pups and their parents. Well, if you want to have a good organization, why not take all the proper procedures into account?
Will looking at the parents guarantee that the puppies in the whelping box are from the said sire or dam? What happens if the sire lives in another state? You obviously assume that the litter inspectors have super special DNA scanning eyes, such that simply by looking at the pups they can see the DNA compostion and can GUARANTEE the heritage of the said pups? PLEASE lah BRUDDER!!!! MadCrazyBlush

I'm sorry but why is it Malaysians requrie MKA to be police?? It's not their job to be police. When a breeder submits the paperwork saying dog X & bitch Y has been mated and these are the puppies, the onus lies on the breeder to tell the truth, NOT the to run after you and be mata mata. Why is it that every other kennel club in the world can run without litter inspectors but Malaysians insist that the should inspect every single litter??? Can't Malaysians be honest? My opinion aside, the DOES have litter inspectors who if i am not mistaken randomly check litters. So what are you all up in arms about. It seems to me that the issue is not MKA but dishonest members. You see if a breeder is dishonest and lies about a litter - and sells it on to an unsupecting buyer then if the buyer discovers that he has been had, he should then take it up with the seller and NOT the. The seller cheated him NOT the. Shocked

On the pedigree it states the following :
**We certify that the above is a true extract of the entry in the Association's Stud Book. **Every registration at the implies submission by one person registering, to the Rules and Regulations in all Canine matters. Does it say anywhere that they guarantee you that what the breeder has submitted to them and told them is gospel?? In the UK etc. they state "The information contained in this Pedigree is true to the best of our knowledge." You see all of you fail to truly understand what you can and can't hold against the. You all do not fully understand how the system works and operates and listen to others with similar knowledge and exposure and thing that that is gospel? Please lah - if and when they are in the wrong blame them, but don't simply shoot off your mouth and make statements which are generalised and unfair. Go and read the print and understand what it means not what YOU think it SHOULD mean. FrownPirateTongue There is one way to solve all this and that is DNA testing lah. But then please bear in mind that the prices of the pups will shoot up as us breeders will be passing on those costs to YOU the buyer as you are the one desperate to know the truth. I guess in time they may well introduce such measures as is beginning in a few countries around the world. Until then market forces will be in force and mean that people will have to wise up and go to reputable breeders. With such forums as this people now have access to information and can make educated decisions without being conned. AngelicBlush

To you the pedigree cert is worthless, but to me bec what is contained in my pedigrees is true, it is worth a lot bec it records the heritage of my dogs, which as a breeder is very important to me. Tongue

If another Kennel Association comes into place (which I do hope in near future) and give a stiff competition to MKA by just upholding a little more integrity and audit on their litter registration itself, I believe that MKA is going to have a run for their money!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but once again you demonstrate your total failure to understand the system of how canine registration bodies work. You can start a club tomorrow and you can go ahead and issue registration certificates, but that is totally worthless to any of us breeders of note as your club will have no recognition or ties with any world canine bodies like MKA already has. You will merely be another UKC? Do you know who they are? Breeders of any worth will always want to be associated with an organisation with international recognition and association. Crazy It's like you making your own selfmade passport and trying to enter another country. The other country doesn't recognise the Passport of the District of Ulu Yam, but only that of Malaysia. Laugh So if you want to talk about worthless - any pedigree NOT issued by the in Malaysia is TOTALLY WORTHLESS. Tongue If you're really keen on dogs get a FULL and complete understanding of how the system works before you all simply listen to coffee shop talk and take it as gospel, come onto forums and hantam hantam.
Adios Amigos!Wink Yeah whatever dude. Don't run away lah. I've had a very interesting discourse with you. LCK Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 29, 2004, 8:25 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 29, 2004, 9:56 PM

Post #149 of 161 (2598 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

Who would use their real name in pup.com? I would fear for my life as I do not know who I am conversing with...This is a "chat-room" and no one uses their real name...

TIM : Think again and i hope i have something behind u before u generalized the matter.Crazy LCK : u r not the only one that use the REAL name.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 11:25 PM

Post #150 of 161 (2578 views)
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Re: [boon] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


TIM : Think again and i hope i have something behind u before u generalized the matter.Crazy LCK : u r not the only one that use the REAL name.



Oh i c Blush I didn't know BOON was your real name UnsureAngelic I thought BOON is an acronym like UMNO or MCA LaughTongueTongueTongueTongue

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 30, 2004, 12:22 AM

Post #151 of 161 (3080 views)
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Re: [LCK] ... MKA & breeding ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree with LCK ...

In so far as pups & breeding are concerned ... MKA is ONLY a registration authority ... and nothing more than that. So, a breeder with with qualified pedigree pups, can register (together with relevant information) the pups with MKA and receive a certificate with parentage particulars.

MKA is NOT an enforcement authority ...

Some points for consideration:

How trustworthy is the Certificate? ... Well, the Certificate is as trustworthy as the person registering the pups.

The registration process works on an "honour" system. And it is the same around the world. If I am not mistaken, in England and Australia all you need to do is just send in particulars of a litter, and the pups will receive certificates. In India, a person can even register a previously unregistered dog without proof of parentage ...

Just like the RIMV Card for your vehicle ... While we can usually assume that the person named on a RMIV Card is the owner of the vehicle - there is no 100% guarantee that the vehicle is not stolen ... or the RIMV Card is not forged ... etc ...

Should the Certificate promise more? ... From a pragmatic & practical point of view, it is hard to see how MKA can guarantee more accuracy or truthfulness in a MKA Certificate ... especially as more and more people breed, producing more pups for registeration each year. The issue of manpower is already a problem. Are purchasers of pups or the breeders prepared to bear higher cost?

Personally, I believe that precautions are reasonably easy to take ...

Maybe the first thing we have to do is adjust our own mind-set ... to appreciate the correct reasons for acquiring a pup ... And fully appreciate that getting a dog is not the same as buying a "thing" ... a dog is not an inanimate object, it lives ... it breathes ... it thinks ... it loves ... it hurts and suffers ... just like we do ...

And the moment we realise and accept the seriousness of acquiring a dog ... everything else kinda falls into place ...

Once we accept that acquiring a pup is acquiring another "living being" ... we will naturally take the basic precaution of getting to know the breeder from whom we buy the pup, and we will not simply buy from any one or from any pet shop.

*** Check out the thread on what to do when wishing to buy a pedigree pup. Follow the advice and you should not have issue with "false" or "forged" certificate

But as LCK says - the Certificate is also no guarantee of quality of the pup. The quality of a pup lies in the quality of it's bloodlines and not on the mere existence of a certificate.

To establish quality - once again we need to get to know the breeder, the dam & sire ... the bloodlines ... ask for advice and make inquiries.

We would not consider buying a car without a test drive, checking the specifications etc ... or buying a house without checking the title, viewing the house, checking under the toilet seat ... etc ...

Why should we be more careful with a car or a house - than with a pup ... because when we acquire a pup ... we are actually committing ourselves into 10 or more years of a relationship with another "living being", whose welfare we are completely responsible for.

So ... (just my own thought) ... maybe the main problem is not so much with the Certificate or any other certificate - but with our own attitude.

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 30, 2004, 12:34 AM)


TOPDOG
ALPHA


Nov 2, 2004, 4:24 AM

Post #152 of 161 (3007 views)
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Re: [LCK] [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello! Mr LCK! I refer to the ealier locked thread where I posted about me visiting SC plaza and saw two young looking guys with suite with two hounds and u replied that this is not a personal ad forum and u hope i am a char boh. Remember????

Ok better clarify! I am NOT a CHAR BOH and neither am I gay ler. Just that one of forumner's AVATAR in the thread got wear a suit posing with his dog so I wonder if the two fellows I saw was one of them or not la! Cos I'm just curious 'who is who' in this section only ler. Unsure
---------------------------------
ROMEOW!!!!!!!!!!


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Nov 4, 2004, 8:35 PM

Post #153 of 161 (2964 views)
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Re: [LCK,surchinmy,skipper,Boon] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the late reply..but I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to answer my question. I really appreciate that..so...THANK YOUSmile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 8, 2004, 8:28 AM

Post #154 of 161 (2912 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer, Boon] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

RealityDreamer ... Welcome for sure ... Smile

Boon ... Got replies from our breeder friends in Aust & elsewhere ... and it appears that I am mistaken ...

Our friends tell me that breeding a dog with desired temperament with another dog with desired temperament will increase probability of getting progeny with similar desired temperament ... So, indeed you can seek to double up on temperament as you would with physical/conformation type elements ... Hope this helps.

Cheers


boon
Doggyman


Nov 8, 2004, 5:53 PM

Post #155 of 161 (2897 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

You are my .....

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


colinchin
Enthusiast


Nov 8, 2004, 7:21 PM

Post #156 of 161 (2885 views)
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Re: [boon] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Morning Boon.


boon
Doggyman


Nov 8, 2004, 9:04 PM

Post #157 of 161 (2860 views)
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Re: [colinchin] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Afternoon Colin

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


colinchin
Enthusiast


Nov 8, 2004, 10:03 PM

Post #158 of 161 (2849 views)
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Re: [boon] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

How's the dogs doing over there ?


boon
Doggyman


Nov 8, 2004, 11:19 PM

Post #159 of 161 (2836 views)
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Re: [colinchin] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

doing fine....guess being notti is the only goal they have now....Pirate

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


colinchin
Enthusiast


Nov 9, 2004, 12:59 AM

Post #160 of 161 (2825 views)
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Re: [boon] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you intend your dogs to be ?


boon
Doggyman


Nov 9, 2004, 2:53 AM

Post #161 of 161 (2816 views)
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Re: [colinchin] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

They are who they are.....guessed being notti is their trueself.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

 
 




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