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PSD
ALPHA


Oct 13, 2003, 9:15 PM

Post #151 of 251 (5353 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Colin,

You can reach me at

BTW I couldn't find anything in the event you mentioned??? lol B careful not to post anything commercial here. We must understand the webmaster and play some fair rules in his courtyard. At least we should show courtesy to him.Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


colinchin
Enthusiast


Oct 13, 2003, 10:50 PM

Post #152 of 251 (5349 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Afternoon PSD,

Thanks for the reply and about your concern at puppy.com but I wasn't doing anything commercial. I respect the webmaster's courtyard too. BTW, how long have you been into working line GSD ?

Regards,

Colin


(This post was edited by colinchin on Oct 13, 2003, 11:12 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 13, 2003, 11:18 PM

Post #153 of 251 (5345 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Colin Chin,

Good day, i also couldn't find the event u mentioned earlier. By the way where r u from ? Also into working mongrel as well ? GSD? Rott ? Mals ? or others ?

By the way, i think u may want to mail PSD for some questions that u may interested to know and ask.Cool

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 13, 2003, 11:35 PM)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 14, 2003, 12:07 AM

Post #154 of 251 (5342 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Are u a working dog people?? Which working breed do u keep?? busybody eh?


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 12:51 AM

Post #155 of 251 (5338 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Boon, Sometimes somethings needs to be done off the public board. Anyway if I may assist I would loved to answer all questions in understanding a working dog to the best tht I can. Otherwise others may be able to do tht too. Most of the replies on a public board needs scrutiny and also needs to be studied and thought over. Only use those you felt is logical and works for you. Therefore our own thinking must be used and put into practise to test the theory.

As for me, I don't like limelight too much...blinds my vission...lolTongue but there are people who knows me quite well on this board. I don't think my total credentials spread out on this board helps to achieve the above. Which I'm here to assist the understanding of SchH and working real GSD. Hope you understand my intention.

Perhaps one day we may meet during trials. I would loved to talk more of myself then if you will allow....heheheh! Anyway Colin good to see another working dog person on this board. We surely need more people like you to kick off SchH in Malaysia.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 14, 2003, 6:22 AM

Post #156 of 251 (5325 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

So wht abt U , r u interested wt workingline as well ? ? Smile






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 14, 2003, 9:00 AM

Post #157 of 251 (5323 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

yes more than interested


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 14, 2003, 3:29 PM

Post #158 of 251 (5316 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

Its good to hear that U r interested ! Smile, I thk it will be easier for other member to addressed your interest if U could maybe kick-start by posing some query ! Wink . . . .so let's hear them ...! Cool !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 4:38 PM

Post #159 of 251 (5315 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

HI,

yeah agree with u. limelight ? hahahhahah i know lah....ur copyright statement always applies.

So know we have how many that are intersted in SchH ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 14, 2003, 7:51 PM

Post #160 of 251 (5304 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

I thought FH was a more advance form of tracking compared to SchH's tracking? Where the track is laid much earlier with a couple more turns (can't remember the exact specification). I may be wrong.

FH1= Advance Tracking

FH2= Superior tracking qualification?



btw,

I've noticed titles IP and IPO, are they the same?



PSD, Polluxx,

It has been mentioned that the 'downfall' of the original GSD breed started 20 - 30 years back, in your opinions, how do the SchH titles awarded to working and show GSDs differ? Can it be concluded that working GSDs are of 'better' SchH quality? As in no cheorography, and full of drive and determination when doing the SchH?


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 7:58 PM

Post #161 of 251 (5301 views)
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Re: [ALL] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hi guys,Smile

I know this question is probably one of the most petty ones that y'all might've come across. So please excuse me and hope you'll take the time to answer.SmileBlush

What do the titles mean? I mean so far I only know FH1 and FH2 as mentioned earlier.

What abt all the other alphabets? What are their qualifications?

Or are there any websites explaining this?

Thanks in advance.Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



mhazman
Member

Oct 14, 2003, 8:19 PM

Post #162 of 251 (5294 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys,

You all can check the titles at
www.workingdogs.com/working_titles.htm

rgds

Azman


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 8:30 PM

Post #163 of 251 (5292 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you very much Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



boon
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 8:48 PM

Post #164 of 251 (5288 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Wei...kawan these days seldom see u online, do come and share your knowledge wit newcomer like me more often lahTongue

The site u posted is very informative. Thanz

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 8:52 PM

Post #165 of 251 (5287 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

RD,

Those are mentioned in the website tht Azman gave to you. Also if you read the this thread, the ones on soo...hoon...(something like tht) from the begining will give you a better information flow into understanding what working GSD is all about. Good luck in your quest.

BTW, your questions is very relevant and not petty IMOSmile Please ask more...look like we now have more resident experts around....to help you.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 9:09 PM

Post #166 of 251 (5286 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
PSD, Polluxx,

how do the SchH titles awarded to working and show GSDs differ? Can it be concluded that working GSDs are of 'better' SchH quality? As in no cheorography, and full of drive and determination when doing the SchH?



Working lines GSD's get their titles in trials in which the place, helpers are not the normal ones they train with. These helpers are strangers to them and will threaten them to the max by direct eye contact, body posture and such.

Show GSD's gets their titles by choreograph moves in the same field, same helper. The helper is a friend to the dog and that test is a game to them. Therefore a showline SchH 3 dogs could not hope to do well in a stadium of 100,000 people with a different stressful helper. Some show SchH dogs (very minimal) does have what it takes but it is more of a fluke in breeding and they will never be making top levels against working lines in international standard SchH trials.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 9:19 PM

Post #167 of 251 (5282 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Find thsi article for early accessing and imprinting of working dogs' puppies. PSD, Polluxx, Kowpa what say u ? Wink




I believe that how a puppy is handled from birth to 16 weeks is critical to their ultimate certification for their intended use.. I am going to give you an outline of how I test my litters and evaluate the puppies. These techniques have worked for me --only 2 of my puppies thus far washed out of any program to which they were targeted. Puppies develop quickly, so each week you must look for something new, thus my initial guidelines are organized by puppy age. By continually offering challenges and tests, at 7 weeks you should know enough about each puppy's suitabilities. At this point early training can begin, with separate sections for puppies selected for patrol versus narcotics and tracking and search/rescue work.

Whelping: Let's start with whelping. My puppies are raised in my bedroom from the day they are born, and handled not only by me but my children of various ages. Doing so helps me start to assess the puppies' temperament right from birth. The puppies are stressed daily for the first 3 weeks. Each person who handles the puppy will hold them differently and you can see which puppy is secure, who is agitated, who is nervous, and who can adjust to different hands. This provides my first indication of which puppies will have the correct nerves to work with the public ,and which puppy can accommodate new situations.

Three weeks: At 3 weeks puppies are given the option to eat some food, usually liver or kidneys as this has a very inciting smell to it. I will put out two dishes and watch to see which puppy uses its nose to find a dish and eat. This simple test shows me who is using their nose and how they use their other senses. Watch to see if they air scent or track the scent closer to the ground. Puppies remember these first impressions, and those who search for their food early on tend to continue with this behavior. By the week's end I am putting only one dish in for the puppies but hiding it under boxes, towels, or newspapers, so I can continually assess how the puppies tackle each new situation. It is also interesting to separate the puppies and set up a maze in which the puppy has to find it's way to the food bowl. The puppy who does this with consistence usually has a great aptitude to use his/her nose and also shows the use of intelligence and problem solving skills.

Four weeks: By the fourth week their hearing has developed sufficiently so I can introduce additional noises to the puppies: dishwasher, vacuum, power washer, vibrations from the dryer. For each experience their mother is available for comfort and to help them with the new experience. Doing so allows the puppies learn to explore new areas but always have a comfort zone to go to. The fourth week is a good time to introduce electronic toys to the puppies--ones that make whirling noises with bright lights flashing on and off are particularly good. I also put in toys that pop up so I can watch how the puppies react to sudden, unexpected changes.

Five weeks: This is when I start to watch the puppies' body language, it is the best time to gauge how they will behave later on in life. We shoot the air guns and watch the tails of the puppies, they can transmit a lot of what the dog is feeling. Is it wagging, stiff, tucked, upright, curly over the back? These are all important indicators of future temperament. A wagging tail shows me a puppy who is curious and willing to take a chance and listen to human directions. A stiff tail held over their back show me a dominant puppy who I would watch for patrol work. A stiff tail semi- tucked is a puppy who works with flight rather then fight drive.

At this time I also put new footing into the puppies' play area, such as cardboard boxes, plastic milk crates, wooden planks, carpeting, linoleum. The different footings help the puppy learn how to adjust its balance, to maneuver its feet and shift its weight. Beginning in the fifth week I also start to weed out my puppies. Puppies who are willing to explore, have good recovery time, and maintain eye contact will be kept. We do puppy agility with the balance beam and low jumps to see how the puppy maneuvers through these obstacles.

Six weeks: At this age we start to assess which puppy has the intensity for narcotics work. To later succeed in such work, the puppies must show they have the endurance needed to work without quitting and the intensity to search until they find the object of their desire. I start by throwing several tennis balls into the puppy pen and watching who picks it up, chases it, or hides it. The next day I use wooden dowels, then PVC piping, then metal spoons--you need a puppy who is curious and willing to pick up different objects. You want a puppy who is willing to play and does not give up, you have to take the object away for them to stop playing. A puppy who is possessive of their object is also an assest for the narcotics program. A inate desire to retrieve and find is what we are looking for at this stage. You might think this is young but a properly breed puppy will shows these drives, they might only surface at the times you are testing but that is enough. I do not leave these objects in with the puppies. I want there playtime to be associated with me only.

Seven weeks: At seven weeks I separate puppies into individual runs. This assures that they do not become pack oriented. This is also when we can start their training. At this point I have tested for and picked the puppy who has had the natural desire to retrieve items thrown for him, who would show possessiveness when he retrieved the items, had good eye contact and showed a willingness to work with his handler. Additionally the puppy should have shown signs it is intelligent and able to think through problems. A dog with tons of ball drive but who cannot think is of no use, he will burn out quickly and not have the stamina to continue. I also do not want the most dominant dog, but rather one in the middle. Lastly, I want a puppy who does not fold under corrections but rather learns and continues to work without holding a grudge. This all might sound like a lot to assess but by seven weeks all this is present in the puppy.

Tracking and search: Now the serious training starts, 10 minutes twice a day. I start to increase the ball drive of the puppy. He must be relentless in his desire to achieve that ball. I will tease him and then place the ball under my foot to see if he digs for it. While he is digging I start to teach the scratch command. Once he digs I will give him the ball as his reward.


Pup in tunnel
Pup on metal stairs
Searching pine needles
Swaying Bridge

I use his drive in different situations to be sure that he is comfortable, using the tunnel for example (first photo). Next we teach the puppies to go up and down open and closed stairs to search for their ball (second photo). We also use natural and artificial barriers for the puppy to work through. The third photo shows the puppies searching for a ball through pine needles. The puppies are then taught to find the ball over the swaying bridge (fourth photo), note the open holes and the noise the metal makes when they walk on it.
Finding Scent

Once the puppy is comfortable with all these obstacles and is willing to search for his ball without giving up we start to teach him to search for a specific drug scent. We start with pseudo- marijuana, which can be obtained from Sigma, and various drug bags, which we get from www.workingdogs.com. We sprinkle the scent on top of the ball and put it in one of the boxes (fifth photo). When the dog finds his ball he will scratch, but what he is actually starting to do is associate that scent with his prize, the ball. We then go to hiding the ball with the scent in the sand and the puppy will actively search until he smells his toy, then he must scratch to receive his reward.

With this simple but strong imprinting the puppies will have no problem completing a certification program by the time they reach their first birthday. We now build on this, hiding the scent in PVC pipes, in lockers, cars, or wood piles. By the time the puppy is 16 weeks old we will take him to a friend's kennel and hide his pseudo-drugs in that environment to make sure he can work through distractions, new scents, and noises. One of our best training areas is near the local train station. Trust me, a train is a great distraction. A fully trained dog shows extreme, our one male is so determined to find the drugs and get his reward that he will work past a female in standing heat!

Patrol: For puppies destined for patrol work we look for somewhat different criteria-- a puppy who is more independent, one who enjoys the ball but is not driven to continually play ball. I want a puppy who has shown alpha tendencies (dominance) and is willing to engage in a fight. I test the puppies at seven weeks for their natural bite quality and desire to engage in a fight. When I say natural bite quality I am looking for the willingness to engage and bite any place on the person. The willingness to bite a rag even while he is held with his feet slightly above the ground. I want a puppy who watches me not closing their eyes wincing. You need a puppy who is willing to fight when startled and not flee. We test them with burlap and towels, looking for a puppy who enjoys biting and is willing to readjust naturally to obtain a better grip. We also will spray a light mist of water at them while biting, plus thrown pop bottles at them, and make them bite while walking over the swaying planks. All of these situations helps to exposure the puppy prior to the end of the socialization period and to assure success when they go into other programs. A puppy needs to learns success with each situation, so that you can build their confidence.



I do not do any bite work with puppies until 5 months of age. I think for a patrol dog it is more important to socialize them and to start them on basic obedience. This control work does not take away from the bite of the dog but rather gives you and your dog a better working relationship.

At five months I start the puppies on bite work using leg and arm sleeves. We introduce different textures and equipment at this point but make sure it is always a win-win situation for the puppy. I use Ken Moyer in Virginia for bite training work along with my husband, Mike Ward. By having two different agitators the puppy starts to learn how to read a person and their behaviors. Ken has two different facilities in Virginia in which the dog can be worked, each offering different locations, footings and buildings, the variety strengthens their training.
Bitework

All these exercises build up confidence in a young dog and help to imprint the proper learning experiences. By limiting a puppy's training to 10-15 minutes twice a day, we make sure the puppy is not overloaded and also pays attention to us during that training time.

The regimen I have described challenges puppies with new experiences timed to fit with their own developing capabilities. By carefully watching how they respond you can judge their own innate abilities, and determine which puppies are most suited to the tasks you need. These diverse experiences also lay the groundwork for later success. The combination of careful screening and early training can ensure successful certification down the road..

Biography: Yvette Piantadosi has raised German Shepard Dogs for the last 20 years, and Belgian Malinois for the last 12 years. She has participated in Ring Sport, Schutzhund, agility, obedience and tracking, assessed and whelped over 267 litters mostly for other breeders, and set up a protocol for treating puppies who come down with parvo. Over 37 dogs from her breeding program have been certified and are currently working in all avenues within the US. We currently have a website with additional information www.jagerstadt.com, or mward7@nc.rr.com

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Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 11:47 PM

Post #168 of 251 (5270 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon,

You are very resourceful. Yes this is good article indeed. There are some of the topics which I would like to point out which might damage the pups if certain parameters are not watched

1) Scenting. The author wrote on putting liver on the plact and let the pup scent to it. In this case, most of the pup will air scent and not put their nose to the ground as needed by SchH Tracking. This excercise will be good to test air scenting ability which is needed in Pilice tracking dog. I would improvise a variation in this excercise to drag the liver on the ground to leave a short trail for the pup to follow. Then we can see their ground scenting ability

2) Socialising them in different environment, different footing and different toys and mechanicals are good. However the tendency for inexperienced people to go overboard too fast, too much and too soon is great. If you had gone over the threshold, the pup can fall into wrong inprinting and may foul up a pup long term. For instance, putting a pup in high place or stairs. If the pup falls down, he will develop this fear associated with height or stairs. In inprinting, our aims is to socialise them to different environment that is non threatening as possible. This is to help them grow up confident for later works.

3) The mention of first doing OB for the Patrol Dog candidate. What I believe the author wanted to say here is motivational OB not formal OB. Doing formal OB on a puppy is like bungee jumping without any ropePirate

4) Before bitework on arm sleeve or leg sleeve, the dog has to be conditioned bite works on other non threatening materials first like ropes, rags and slowly onto tugs before a sleeve. The author may have miss a step here as he may be intending this writeup to those whom already have puppy training experience.

5) I like the author mention all play is with me only. This is excellent inprinting for any dogs.

Just to share this opinion. Others you say please.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 15, 2003, 12:23 AM

Post #169 of 251 (5267 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Here I come

What is the main purpose of sheshun training?

To be eligible to do sheshun training, what essential a dog must have?


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 15, 2003, 4:23 AM

Post #170 of 251 (5254 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Yo Wildgunsr,

Yes, FH is much harder/advance tracking trial than even ScH3 tracking. ! It has a much longer track, more turns, more articles also crosstracks to confuse the dog. Laugh

BTW there are 3 level of FH, FH2 & FH3 !

and yes both IP & IPO refer to the same thing.Wink



Quote :
"PSD, Polluxx,
It has been mentioned that the 'downfall' of the original GSD breed started 20 - 30 years back, in your opinions, how do the SchH titles awarded to working and show GSDs differ? Can it be concluded that working GSDs are of 'better' SchH quality."
====================================
Fully agree wt wht PSD has mentioned ! Wink but would like to further add that working GSD is not of better "ScH" quality b'coz there is also other workingline breeds which can also excel in ScH.
I would say IMO working GSD is actually the only "Real GSD" , which were ORIGINALLY bred for its amazing workability, physical & emotional adaptability for all sorts of works in all kind of condition. Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 15, 2003, 6:19 AM

Post #171 of 251 (5250 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

Quote :
"sheshun training"
===============================
Well actually it is refer as "Schutzhund" or when translated from German, means "Protection Dog" Wink



Quote :
"To be eligible to do sheshun training, what essential a dog must have?"
=====================================
Well since the objective of Schutzhund is to help to identify dogs with the working abilities so naturally only dogs genetically equiped with the the necessary working drv are able to do ScH. If U refer to the earlier post in this thread , U wil find the term for working drv that is the pre-requistive for ScH training. In any case, for ease of reference I hereby quote from Mr H Raiser's book's "Der Schutzhund" ;

===================================
Prey Drive

Prey drive is part of a dog's food gathering behaviour. In a predatory animal that means prey drive governs hunting and killing techniques. Chasing, flushing, pouncing, biting, and shaking-to-death, are the most important of these techniques when we are talking about protection training. In order to stimulate these instinctive techniques in the dog, we have to keep in mind what a real prey animal does when it is hunted. Prey is always on the move, it always moves in an evasive fashion, and it is panic-stricken. These behaviours in turn trigger pursuit, pouncing, biting, pulling, and shaking-to-death in the dog. Prey drive is inborn, and is a trainable instinct, meaning it can be enhanced or reduced. Prey drive can be exhausted, meaning that a time will come when the dog "doesn't feel like performing the desired behaviours any more." Author's note: Considering the serious effects the end result of this drive would have on a prey animal, I do not subscribe to the idea that prey work is only a silly game.

Defense Drive

Defense drive counts as one of the dog's aggression behaviours, and it can appear in conjunction with other behaviours. Threatening, staring, and biting are typical defensive reactions. Defense behaviour is generally triggered by threats, real or perceived, or open aggression. The goal of defense behaviour is always to create avoidance behaviour in the threatener. Defense drive may appear as defense of prey, defense of puppies, defense of territory, defense against the unfamiliar, or self-defense. The drive is satisfied in each case when the aggressor shows avoidance behaviour. Defense drive is not subject to exhaustion, so it can be activated at will. It should, therefore, be part of the combative behaviour of any protection dog. Furthermore, it is responsible for behaviours like countering when under stress or when threatened. The great danger when working a dog in defense drive is that the same stimuli which cause defense behaviour also cause avoidance behaviour. Which of the two possible behaviours is displayed by a dog when a trigger stimulus is presented is dependant on a variety of factors, among them confidence and temperament of the dog as well as the threatener, "life" experiences of the dog, age and maturity of the dog, location (unfamiliar or home turf), distance between adversaries, and the presence of other external influences (prey, mate, puppies). Author's note: Hopefully this allows people to see defense for the double-edged sword it is. Defense is one part of protection training. The idea that good dogs should only be worked in defense is a dangerous one which has wrecked many great dogs.

Aggression Drive

Aggression behaviour contains reactive aggression (defense) as well as active aggression (social aggression). With all the different theories that exist about aggression, there still is no conclusive proof available as to whether or not genuine spontaneous aggression exists. The three theories about where aggression comes from are:

Aggression is learned.
Aggression is created by negative experiences.
Aggression is inborn.

The truth is probably that aggression results from all three processes. Research is available to support all three theories. For our purposes however, we should concern ourselves less with where aggression comes from and more with what triggers it, what its goal is, and what its biological significance is. The triggers for reactive aggression (defense) was covered under the previous heading. So, lets deal with active aggression. It is always intraspecific, meaning social aggression, and is the result of competition over things (territory, food, mates, etc.). Intraspecific aggression is activated by rivals, and by anti-social behaviour. The goal of the drive is to cause avoidance, submission, or worse of the rival. Biological significance is the even distribution of a species over available land to reduce the possibility of food shortages and epidemics as well as survival of a species and a pack by selecting the fittest animals for reproduction and as leaders. In species with a social hierarchy behaviours developed from the aggressive drive, which limit the negative results and guarantee the positive results of social aggression such as threatening, dominance, submission, and rituals of non-physical combat.

Aggression increases through maturation and practise. It can also be increased or decreased through training and through external influences, for example pain can be aggression stimulating. Other factors which affect aggressive behaviour are location and hormone levels. Two factors which affect aggression that a protection helper needs to be aware of are: personal acquaintance blocks aggression; and passive acceptance of a dog's aggression impresses a dog deeply and causes unsureness.

A negative side effect of aggression in dog training is that it greatly reduces the dog's learning ability.

Author's note: We all want to see our dogs work aggressively against the "bad guy," but we need to keep in mind that that is the final picture we want to see. Too often high quality dogs don't reach their potential because their owners want to see them aggressive right from the start, forgetting about the fact that the dog has to learn many intricate exercises before he can walk onto the competition field. So if possible teach the dog an exercise first, then make him perform it aggressively.

Fighting Drive

Again the question of whether or not an independent fighting drive exists has not yet been answered. Some dog-experts feel that a fighting drive must exist and that it is related to the play drive. The term fighting drive is an oxymoron. It combines the word drive refers to an inherited trait which serves to preserve life and species, with the word fight which refers to physical combat. A drive to fight would then be an internal motivation which leads the animal into a potentially harmful situation. But even in social aggression the non-physical ritualistic showdowns are much more common than the injurious physical fights. However, that argument aside, the term fighting drive is a useful description of a desirable behaviour in the dog. We want to see a dog who has fun fighting with the helper. But only a dog who doesn't feel like he is fighting for his life can be unstressed and have fun. Therefore I (Raiser) feel that fighting drive is an extension of prey drive.

What qualities make up good fighting drive - meaning the spontaneity? Practical experience has shown that dogs who work primarily in as a result of their defensive drive may still lack fighting drive. Dogs like that then often fail to engage the helper if he does not present any defensive stimuli, but work confidently while under threat. The desire to "seek the fight" is an essential ingredient of fighting drive. In all dogs with pronounced fighting drive, I also found pronounced prey drive. Making prey is a passionate activity which does not stress the dog. However, prey drive alone is not equal to fighting drive, the dog also has to use defense behaviour. The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. The object of competition could vary: it could be the prey (hence the relation to prey drive); or it could be social rank, which works well with dominant dogs. So in order to increase fighting drive, we have to promote prey drive, build up defense drive, and strengthen aggression by teaching the dog that he can defeat and dominate the helper. This should make it very clear that as much as fighting drive is a very desirable quality, one cannot expect to see it fully developed in a one year old dog.

=====================================

As an afternote, I would like to add that even though that a dog's must have the drv to do the work but we, the handler must know or understand how to activate it ...Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 15, 2003, 6:26 AM)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 15, 2003, 8:35 AM

Post #172 of 251 (5239 views)
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Re: [boon,PSD,Azman,Kowpa,colinchin,RealityDreamer,Wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guys,


Boon, that's a good post u put up, now I know another way to teach my dog on how to "dig".Tongue


Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
At 5 weeks ,
"We shoot the air guns and watch the tails of the puppies, they can transmit a lot of what the dog is feeling. Is it wagging, stiff, tucked, upright, curly over the back? These are all important indicators of future temperament. A wagging tail shows me a puppy who is curious and willing to take a chance and listen to human directions. A stiff tail held over their back show me a dominant puppy who I would watch for patrol work. A stiff tail semi- tucked is a puppy who works with flight rather then fight drive."
====================================
So guys, wht do U thk of the above ? Is the reading of the above pup's body language...a good indicator of their future temperament ! I tot u need at least 7-8 weeks old before U r able to gauge their future behaviour. Crazy...


Overall, I thk it quite a good regimented program for a working kennel , & u will need helpers/assistant to pull it off. As for me, I will just stick wt playing tug/ball to stimulate prey drv for a start plus some simple motivational OB like sit/down/stay until 1 yr old before moving on.


I'm hoping that all u guys on board would share your's opinion or experience or even query on how to raise a working (ScH) prospect pups (GSD or otherwise) ..? ?


p/s :PSD, back to ur post abt tracking , how do U transfer the scent to the ground (using liver) to foot tracking ? ? ? I meant the transition ? ?Blush






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 15, 2003, 9:35 AM

Post #173 of 251 (5234 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wow what a great man! U sound like a schutzhund trainer eh? I thought motor vehicles only have drives dogs also do have drive too ah!

Quote :
"sheshun training"
===============================
Well actually it is refer as "Schutzhund" or when translated from German, means "Protection Dog" Wink
============================================== Since schutzhund means protection dog so the propose of schutzhund is protection is that wat u mean?
=============================================

Quote :
"To be eligible to do sheshun training, what essential a dog must have?
=================================== Prey Drive
Prey drive is inborn,
================================================ Do u mean that every dogs definately have this kind of drive the prey drive the crazy drive! But I have seen dogs not interested in chasing a running ball? Is it that he is not born with this kind of drive? If this drive can be trained will this dog be a future schutzhund?
============================================= Defense Drive
A dog being provoke and out of fear he bites is this considered defense drive ? ================================================
Aggression Drive
Do u need this kind of drive in the schutzhund? ================================================== Fighting Drive
The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival.
=====================================
In this case schutzhund are very dangerous? Don't u think so?



colinchin
Enthusiast


Oct 15, 2003, 5:17 PM

Post #174 of 251 (5228 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

A very good morning to all you out there,

Look like there was a heavy discussion last night. Anyone knows of the differences between real protection dogs and sports dogs ie for eg. SchH, etc ??

Have a good day at work.

Regards,

Colin


mhazman
Member

Oct 15, 2003, 11:31 PM

Post #175 of 251 (5216 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Colin,
Real protection requires a high degree of defense, fight and civil drives in a dog. Sport dogs having them can be trained in civil agitation, hidden sleeve,muzzlework and body bites. The workingline gang did quite bit of discussions in the earlier posts.

It can be quite confusing at first but with a good understanding on drives, temperament, sharpness etc we should get the idea somehow. Also helps if you can observe your dogs.

rgds

Azman

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