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PSD
ALPHA

Sep 22, 2003, 8:37 PM

Post #26 of 251 (5796 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi PSD & Pollux,
After reading your posts for some time, I've decided to join in..
I'm also crazy on working dogs and protection sports.
I've got a Czech dog for my family protection and their courage and hardness is very different from others.
I think there may be enough ppl interested to start a
dogsports club...

Azman

Azman,

Good to see you coming in. Where are you based? Which Czech line do you have and are you doing any training with it? Just want to know you better.

I think more working dogs people should congregate and start conversations and discussion on training topics so that the public can understand more about working dogs. It is from contribution and participation we can get the first feel of how many people is there before going for bigger things. Your first step is most correct. Hope to see more of your posting.

many people I think may be a bit intimidated to participate in this forum due to the depth of discussion Polluxx had brought up Laugh

I think he has done a lot of his homework to be able to come up with such topics and comments.

Nevertheless, Please join which ever level your are in as long as you have interest in working dogs, use this chance to deepen your knowledge. If I or any other more experienced people are available I'm sure you will get your response. I always remember that everyone have to start from somewhere and the more you ask the faster your learning curve.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

Polluxx
Enthusiast

Sep 22, 2003, 9:04 PM

Post #27 of 251 (5792 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Azman,

It's wonderful u can join in the discussion, we for sure can need more ppl like u to participate. Smile

Just curious... your Czech dog is out of which line (Sire & dam)..? Did u import him in as a trained adult or puppy . . .?

BTW I've yet to see any Czech GSD in M'sia. The closest thing is Slov & DDR...?

How is his temperament & working drv. maybe u can share with the board member abt ur experience . . . ! Wink

Quote :

"and their courage and hardness is very different from others. "

is he handler hard & strong fight drv. . ? maybe u can help to describe more abt this.....sorry ! I'm just too curious....! Blush

What abt his pysical attributes, bonestrength, colour (. . . dark sable ? ?), oh yeah... wht abt his head size... sorry ! I got this fetish for big blocky head.. Sly

I heard that Czech line is mostly out of old DDR workingline (Border Patrol....kinda of thing...u know..!) so they might share some of the similar phenotype.

BTW which state r u from.....? Hopefully u r form JH,...so I can have one more kaki nearby...!

"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

mhazman
Member

Sep 22, 2003, 9:05 PM

Post #28 of 251 (5792 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

PSD,
My dog is the son of Norbo Ben Ju and and Gero Blatenskeho zamku grandson on the dam side. I guess you know the lines by now. I'm a fan of Titus zPS...
There are also 3 (Malinois, Dobe & rott)others to support him at home.

We do a bit of everything to keep them occupied. My Malinois and Rott is doing some prey bitework while the GSD is mainly defense and bites for real. It's not easy to get helpers for real protection works.
And he's pretty civil.

I think the awareness is very important to all dog people before they buy or breed dogs so that we can have more working dogs that are true to its breed standards.

Azman

PSD
ALPHA

Sep 22, 2003, 9:15 PM

Post #29 of 251 (5791 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Azman,

Hey you have a hellofa dog there. Yeah, civil is the middle name for most Czech dogs. How old is he? Any titles yet?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

Polluxx
Enthusiast

Sep 22, 2003, 9:20 PM

Post #30 of 251 (5790 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Quote :

"Civil = Aggr.....not very accurate intepretation. Being civil means to perceive a 3rd party a threat until being told otherwise by the handler. For example a walk in the park and the dog goes pass a jogger whom doesn't stare into his eyes or give any thretening gestures will just be ignored. But a person come in a straight line stare into the dog's eye directly or acting suspicious causes the alarm bark. The bark is deep and usually followed in 3-4 consequitive barks. This is being civil. Barking at another dog or cat etc is not considered civil."

So Civil is basically barking under threat when in defensive mode. Thanx for pointing out to me. Tongue

Regarding the Czech line, maybe we can chk wt Azman since he own one....would be most curious to see what he has got to say abt them.

My next pose maybe totally out of wht we have been discussing so far, anyway here it goes well I read somewhere that Zamb Winerau (VA) produce good working dog when use wt good working bitch, so have u read anything abt this. I know the sh-line angulation is crappy....but it will help in area such as bone strength & sizes......just curious..!

Wht do u think...??

will write again later.....working rite now..! Tongue

"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

PSD
ALPHA

Sep 22, 2003, 9:56 PM

Post #31 of 251 (5790 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Polluxx,

Sorry, This is a line I'll get far far away from. I'd rather not comment more.

Bone strength and size is really not the issue that you must use Zamb for it. Also to watch out for is not to overemphasise of extreemes in size as this will then be bred out of standard like Shiloh and King Sheppherd who is then too heavy to work. Definately not my cup of tea.
Tongue

Extreemes in working drives is another thing though

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 1:23 AM

Post #32 of 251 (5785 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi PSD,

He is 2 1/2 yrs old. He was bred and trained by Jiri for personal protection and dual purpose work. I'm not planning to title him for now but if we have Sch. or IPO here I'd like to title my Malinois.

Azman

mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 1:31 AM

Post #33 of 251 (5785 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

My version of civil would be " willingness to fight a man without equipment". I guess thats why the dogs are trained on hidden sleeve and muzzlework. But its a little bit risky..

Azman

mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 3:25 AM

Post #34 of 251 (5782 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Polluxx,

"BTW I've yet to see any Czech GSD in M'sia. The closest thing is Slov & DDR...? "

I have his photo attached in the members intro. under mhazman page 16 on March 25,2003 if you'd like to see or you can come to my place... Sungai Buloh, Selangor.

"How is his temperament & working drv. maybe u can share with the board member abt ur experience . . . !

Quote :

"and their courage and hardness is very different from others. "

is he handler hard & strong fight drv. . ? maybe u can help to describe more abt this.....sorry ! I'm just too curious....! "

He is handled by my children but can be hard and tough when working. Also very protective of his family and territory. Overall, I would rather have him beside me in a real life situation.

Azman

Polluxx
Enthusiast

Sep 23, 2003, 4:52 AM

Post #35 of 251 (5779 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Just seen ur Amor's photo, U got urself a tough looking dog there !

*"Norbo Ben Ju and and Gero Blatenskeho zamku"*

WoW ! Shocked

! must be one hell of a dominant dog u got there . . . ! Wink

I wonder does anything scare him at all...!

Quote :
"He is handled by my children but can be hard and tough when working."

So does he has any rank issue . . ! I meant since ur kid is handling them...he should be ok rite..? ?

BTW it seems a lot of Czech fan is crazy abt Titus PS, any particular reason, other than the hardness and the extremely strong prey/fight drv . . ? wht does he produce....? how abt his hip record ? would be most interested to find out... Smile

Oh yeah one last thing, I'm just curious , ur rott is out of which line ? ....errr....rott is another one my fav breed..! Wink

"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

airdrigh
Novice

Sep 23, 2003, 5:04 AM

Post #36 of 251 (5777 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi polluxx, I have been following this thread and am really interested in learning more about GSD's. Are you in JB? where do you learn so much about the GSD's? and do you know of any good breeders locally in kl or is it more advisable to import a good GSD in?

Polluxx
Enthusiast

Sep 23, 2003, 5:10 AM

Post #37 of 251 (5777 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Quote :
"Bone strength and size is really not the issue that you must use Zamb for it. "
dun worry la...not into breeding yet , just something I've read quite sometime back so just wanna gather some feedback. Wink

Anyway, didn't the FCI (or was it SV ? ? ) was trying something like the Universal Sieger to bridge the gap between working & show sometime back . . . any idea wht happen to it ? ?

Talking abt breeding, wht do u think of Azman's serious working stud ?He-he ! Sly

... trying to play matchmaker here.... Tongue

. .U know wht, I'm kinda floor when in less than a wk I found out there a there's Mink progeny & serious working Czech in M'sia......WoW.. Shocked

..!

hoping to see more out there..... Smile

..!

"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

Polluxx
Enthusiast

Sep 23, 2003, 6:24 AM

Post #38 of 251 (5774 views)
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Re: [airdrigh] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi airdrigh,

"Are you in JB? "
Nope....nearby...KT. Have u been there ?

Well I first of all I dun thk I know a lot abt GSD, but most of the info I get is from internet discussion board such as this . . . . so my advise would be to join more discussion board esp those dealing wt GSD.

I dun know a lot of breeder in M'sia , just a handful only but I would advise tht u do ur research 1st before getting one. I m sure there will be a lot ppl on this board who will guide you if u have any query !

"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 6:55 PM

Post #39 of 251 (5762 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

"WoW ! ! must be one hell of a dominant dog u got there . . . ! I wonder does anything scare him at all...! "
He is dominant but with the other dogs .
So far the tail is still up.....

"So does he has any rank issue . . ! I meant since ur kid is handling them...he should be ok rite..? ? "

OK with all except my 4 yr old ( about the same size)
boy who likes to tease him. Also OK with other dogs except my rott. I think it is rank issue. No settlement yet.... Already fought twice..

Titus zPS - He is one of the famous studs at zPS kennel. There are also others like Grim zPS etc. which were used to improve hardness and courage.
Normally they produce quite versatile dogs that can do a lot of task and with early socialisation, it will also make a good house dog.
There 's no ZW or breed value like the SV does in Germany but they have the breed survey similar to koerung which is limited to the individual dog.
But these are real working dogs which are bred for their working abilities, so I'll bet on them rather than
a good ZW dog if I need a real working dog. Don't get me wrong, the ZW # is important for HD/ED but it is as good as the number of dogs behind it.

"Oh yeah one last thing, I'm just curious , ur rott is out of which line ? ....errr....rott is another one my fav breed..! "

He's the son of Bronko od Dragicevica linebred to Gil crni lotos.

Azman

Polluxx
Enthusiast

Sep 23, 2003, 9:13 PM

Post #40 of 251 (5753 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Well I guess there is some truth as to wht u thk abt ZW # but I thk it serve as a useful tool when it comes to choosing a breeding mate.

Let say if I'm into breeding I will want to know the progeny pre-disposition to HD, I guess its something like wht we refer as calculated risk. Wht do u think ? Cool

But then I guess it is still hard to use the ZW# here, coz it is dynamic so unless we can get updated database periodicaly from SV , if not whatever no. we have on hand will be old news 1- yrs down the road..! Unimpressed

Just curious, was Amor breed-surveyed b4 u got him, if yes, is it ok to share his survey no. on the board ? ? Wink

BTW any reason u choose Gil's line (well Bronko is a gorgeus looking dog, wht a head !... Cool

), I was thinking u might have German working line since u r into working line. Tongue

. So how old is he, and how is his prey & defence drv coming up . . ! Recently I was chking out the Hammerbachtl, Shambal line, so do u have any info abt them..?

I got a fren who has a Bronko's daughter. He was complaining abt something like undershot or...... is it over-shot jaw problem . . ? He didn't mention much abt her drv though...he is into show !

Cheers

"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 10:49 PM

Post #41 of 251 (5752 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Polluxx,
"Let say if I'm into breeding I will want to know the progeny pre-disposition to HD, I guess its something like wht we refer as calculated risk. Wht do u think ? " Agreed but still no guarantee.

Amor- He was too young for BST when I got him here. Furthermore he is here for protection and not for breeding.

I'm not into rott as much as GSD. Just happen that I had the opportunity to have Gil's grandson, so I took that 'calculated risk'.
He's 1 yr now.
Prey drive - He's 3rd after Amor and the Malinois is 1st.
Defense - Slowly developing... still very playful but has improved in his bitework.
"Hammerbachtl, Shambal lines" sorry can't help you much.
I 've heard a lot of people claim that their dog doesn't match the breed standard for body conformation. It is again the other side of the calculated risk of buying a puppy because of the parent's credentials. I'm not a rott expert but at 1 year old I'm happy with him inside out. ( mmh.. Maybe he could improve on the obedience a little bit)

Azman

PSD
ALPHA

Sep 23, 2003, 11:18 PM

Post #42 of 251 (5750 views)
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Re: [all] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Polluxx, Azman, Airdrigh,

Wow! Just dissapear for a while and seems there is much action here. Good to go guys.

Airdrigh, Polluxx is rite. Do more participation and pick up more about GSD. Just don't rush into anything if you are interested in the original lines bread for working.

Azman,

I'm quite delighted that some here shares the interest in Czech Lines. Well the difference between German n Czech is that the breeding goals slightly differs. While the germans go for Sports porpose, Czech goes for military and police use. This is why Czech dogs are more civil and seemingly more fight.

I think you already know my opinion about bridging working lines n show so I'll stop here. The universal sieger thing I believe will do worse for the breed IMO. Best to remain the 2 different lines.

Azman, if i happen to be around your area, I'll take up your offer to look see your pride Smile

Like Polluxx, I'm delighted that more and more gems are unearthed in Malaysia......hope to see more.....Like this SchH will have a good chance.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

airdrigh
Novice

Sep 23, 2003, 11:58 PM

Post #43 of 251 (5747 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Azman, I live like just down the long road from you, taman tun area. If I am free during the weeknds, is it possible to drop by your place and have a look at your dog and maybe to learn more? Cheers.

airdrigh
Novice

Sep 24, 2003, 12:00 AM

Post #44 of 251 (5745 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

PSD, yup just taking things real slow at the moment trying to understand the short forms now and what they all mean. Any suggestions on what is a good website to go? And do you know of any good breeders that breed GSD's for improvement rather than for greed? Have come across too many unscrupulous breeders just out to con your money. Do you breed yourself? and where are you based?

PSD
ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 1:41 AM

Post #45 of 251 (5742 views)
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Re: [airdrigh] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Airdrigh,

It is mine and the boards policy not to divulge anything that may be construed as commercial. Such questions should be on personal E-mail.

Maybe Polluxx can help you with some recomendations if you contact him personally.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

Polluxx
Enthusiast

Sep 24, 2003, 6:08 AM

Post #46 of 251 (5737 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Azman,

As to ur earlier post regarding ur intrepretation on "Civil"
= willingness to fight a man without equipment
for dogs trained on hidden sleeve and muzzlework

Well if that is the case, then doesn't that shows ScH wouldn't be able to test how Civil the dog is, well then the only way will be thru KNPV Ring sport, Mondio R or something similar that, as I understand those r another level altogether.... Shocked

wouldn't u say so....

So how old was Amor when u got him ? Read that Czech paper takes a very long time to process & send to the buyer ! Is it true ?
BTW Is he train for Sch or SVV or real life protection works ? ? maybe I'm getting too inquisitive, hope u dun mind . . Tongue

read earlier that u r doing bitework wt ur dogs, so where did u get ur helpers ? ?

One last thing, how on earth did U manage wt so many dominant dogs around ? Wink

really my hats off to u, U must be very ALPHA Tongue

.... mind sharing wt us ur secret... Sly

! !
BTW r they let out together most of the time or only under close supervision...?

Cheers ! Cool

"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

mhazman
Member

Sep 24, 2003, 5:52 PM

Post #47 of 251 (5731 views)
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Re: [airdrigh] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Airdrigh,

You are welcome.

Azman

mhazman
Member

Sep 24, 2003, 6:46 PM

Post #48 of 251 (5729 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

"Well if that is the case, then doesn't that shows ScH wouldn't be able to test how Civil the dog is, well then the only way will be thru KNPV Ring sport, Mondio R or something similar that, as I understand those r another level altogether....
wouldn't u say so.... "

Yupp..
I've seen some ring sport video where Sch 3 dogs ran back to their handlers when challenged by some tough helpers.

Amor is trained for real protection. I got him when he was 16 months.His papers came with his crate..

Prey bitework can be done yourself.
Defense - Some friends doing training kennel that I go to. But I seldom do it. Coz' only for Amor and transportation ...( Amor loves to sit in the car and behaves well) Need to get a SWagon or MPV. Imagine stopping at a traffic light n see a wolf like head staring deep at you. Ha ..Ha..

They have a big area to roam.( abt 1 acre... 1 dog where got enough) All 4 used to be out 24/7 until the rott. starts having eye contact with Amor and would not back down.

There's no secret lah..!
You have to resolve the rank issue and how well you bond with them. I guess its easier said..

PSD
ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 8:05 PM

Post #49 of 251 (5725 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

"Well if that is the case, then doesn't that shows ScH wouldn't be able to test how Civil the dog is
Yupp..
I've seen some ring sport video where Sch 3 dogs ran back to their handlers when challenged by some tough helpers.

Ermmm! Guys, have to do a bit of clarification here. Cannot generalise this way lah! SchH cannot test civil aggression is because of 2 things

1) Scrap genetics in the dogs
2) Good dogs are being trained on scrappy foundation which uses prey and only prey drives

When a dog bite a sleeve there possibility of 3 drives in which he bites. He is either biting out of prey in which he sees it as a game, he bites because he is being stressed without anywhere else to run then he will bite in survival mode or defense or he bites in fight drive just because he sees the helper as a fighting partner. In good SchH work we want to see dogs bite in fight but such dogs are a gem in a million onced trained well.

Azman, the dog you see that runs on threats are prey monsters. So don't get confused of what SchH is. If you have seen more dogs then you will be able to tell which drives the dog is working in.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

mhazman
Member

Sep 24, 2003, 8:27 PM

Post #50 of 251 (5723 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to]	Can't Post

PSD,
You are right..
Not to generalise but only qouting e.g of dogs trained or locked in prey still can get title.
Those with balanced drives are hard to come by.
Fully agree with you.

Azman

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