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Train 2 behaviours at once ... ???

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jaytan
Canine Addict

Mar 16, 2004, 7:00 PM

Post #26 of 56 (1884 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, thanks for the encouragement.

Day 4 ended 50/50 with Picnic pooping during the 5pm walk and Sparky during the 10pm toilet session. But I didnt crate them overnight this time. I figured that if they were going to poop anyway I would prefer for it to happen outside their sleeping area. Also better preserve their keep-home-clean instinct like you suggested in the latest posting.

I didnt know what to expect for Day 5 but surprise, surprise. I found the floor sparkling clean at 6.45am. Then both pooped during their 7am walk. Maybe we are on the roll again, haahahah. And fortunately I hadnt strangled them yesterday, hahahahaha.

Yes, many changes were made over the weekend. From morning 50% kibble, evening 50% raw to morning 75% raw and evening 25% kibble. Crate-training and shifting walking and meal times. Now, it would seem that an earlier afternoon walk was not necessary, phew. I will still feed them the main meal in the morning. Better not change this again so soon. Restricting water after 8pm and the 10pm toilet call before sleeping are musts. Yesterday they pooped early in the afternoon after guzzling the whole bottle in the morning. For the time being I will see if we can do without crating overnight. Maybe we can see how the puppies settle into this arrangement in the next few days. My fingers are still crossed, heheheh. Thanks again and best regards,J

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 16, 2004, 8:31 PM

Post #27 of 56 (1881 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi ...

Little recap ... with your current modifications ... you are basically going to JUST rely on the rescheduling of feeding & water to help delay earling morning elimination ...

Should be okay, because as you mentioned in earlier posting ... your pups' difficulty holding in morning, may be just because of the timing of the evening meal ...

Cheers ... Smile

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 16, 2004, 9:02 PM

Post #28 of 56 (1878 views)
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Re: [a_evie, aragorn2976] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi ...

Here are the clicker sites ...

This is the K Pryor's site ... you can sign up and get regular updates ...

www.clickertraining.com/home/index.htm

These are sites with good basic information on clicker training and the basic principles:

www.clickertrain.com/

www.wagntrain.com/OC/

www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm

Cheers Smile

jaytan
Canine Addict

Mar 16, 2004, 9:03 PM

Post #29 of 56 (1877 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, fancy it now boils down to these 2 simple steps. Well, I hope this is one of those simple things which works best. And anyway, initially we didnt really have a good feel about what might work and what might not. So we tried everything to stack the chances for success. Maybe we can be more focused after the brief trial and error. And we also want to avoid any side effects. So we are now concentrating on the early morning pooping as you suggested. Meanwhile ensure they dont poop in their sleeping area and keep other factors stable. Sounds good, hehehhe. Thanks again and best regards,J

a_evie
Doggyman

Mar 17, 2004, 12:39 AM

Post #30 of 56 (1871 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

thanx!!

are you doing clicker with ur furkids? btw...no pics of them??

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 17, 2004, 3:59 AM

Post #31 of 56 (1870 views)
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Re: [a_evie] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hmmm ... I don't think I'd call what I do clicker training ... more like clicker playing ... *LOL* ...

a_evie
Doggyman

Mar 17, 2004, 7:08 PM

Post #32 of 56 (1865 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

playing?

i would say that everything is play to shalom. she takes joy in whatever that we subject her too...even her showers and visit to the vet. i mean its strange to see her wagging her tail at her vet...waiting to be carried...even in the examination room. no hard feeling even when the guy jabs her or take her temperature...still busy tring to lick the vet and the helper like gila.

sometimes i wonder whether she is mad.... Crazy

jaytan
Canine Addict

Mar 19, 2004, 7:55 PM

Post #33 of 56 (1859 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi Surchinmy, it is DAY 8 and it looks good. The doggies have not pooped indoors at all for 4 days, since DAY 5. They have adjusted to the changes in their feeding and walking patterns. I have also adjusted to taking them out before bedtime. Yesterday, Picnic staged a rebellion. She did not poop in the afternoon or night, escaped her collar during the 10pm toilet session and ran around the field like an escaped convict. I crated her overnight and she held on till the next morning. That means she didnt poop for 24hours. Dunno whether she actually did poop when I took Sparky home and got some food to lure her back. Anyway, she didnt complain being crated alone. We have gotten back into the routine when both did their duty during this morning's walk. Now I have to shift the morning release further from the current 700am to 720am when school reopens on Monday. But the results does look consistent and our efforts successful. What wonderful puppies, hehehehe. We are still talking about toilet training Beagles here, heheheh. Best regards,J

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 19, 2004, 8:03 PM

Post #34 of 56 (1857 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

YES!!! ... sounds good ... well done ... Laugh

... Think you have done a great job with your puppies ...

Cheers Smile

jaytan
Canine Addict

Mar 19, 2004, 8:12 PM

Post #35 of 56 (1854 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, thanks vm for your guidance. I guess it is not too early to pat ourselves on the back, heheheh. Sorry to have turned this thread into another on pooping. But at least this one has a happy ending. Best regards.J

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 19, 2004, 8:18 PM

Post #36 of 56 (1852 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

You are most welcome ... but seriously - all the words in the world ain't gonna make a jot of difference without an owner who is prepared to love and do what is necessary ... so, all credit goes to you and your puppies and no one else ... Smile

...

As for pats on the back ... OH NO ... never say things like that ... or you will "goat's mouth" the whole thing ... *shhhhsssssh* ... and then something sure go wrong one ... and then - we kena again ... *LOL*...

Enjoy your success in the quiet companionable luxury of silence ... *grin*... and don't tempt the Gods ...

Cheers Smile

jaytan
Canine Addict

Mar 19, 2004, 9:18 PM

Post #37 of 56 (1848 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi Surchinmy, The past week I have only had to soap and scrub, 3 times in 8 days, so I can afford to kena again, hahaha. Yesterday I had to spray and mop just for the accummulated hair and general grubbiness. What luxury, heheheh.

In the early puppy days, we produced 1-2 huge garbage bags of soiled newspapers every day. Now the newspapers just go with the rubbish from the kitchen into one tidy garbage bin, emptied on alternate days. The garbage man wont even suspect we are paper training puppies, hahahha.

I guess I am a serious dog owner. One who is prepared to rough it out in the initial months so that the remaining years can be enjoyed. But I am also very tough with my doggies. No junk food and no coddling bad behaviour. Sometimes my daughters think I am too hard. But I believe in tough love and Beagles do need to be handled very firmly. Thanks again and best regards,J

aragorn2976
Ultra ALPHA

Mar 22, 2004, 6:04 PM

Post #38 of 56 (1843 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Greetings...

Sorry for the late reply... Frown

Isn't it strange that work and life is a symbiotic relationship? Wink

... Without some work, there would be no life... Kekeke... Anyway, I hate it when work interrupts my leisure life... Frown

Wow... It really does work, huh? Hmmm.. I think I might give it a go. Was at the petstore yesterday picking up some food but forgot to look for the clicker!! Sly

Hmmmm.... Will look up clicker training websites later. However, the book that I got for teaching dog tricks did mention a bit on clicker training... Cool

Join the JRT Zone

Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. - 1 John 4:7 (Oofy's motto)

jaytan
Canine Addict

Jun 16, 2004, 12:22 AM

Post #39 of 56 (1737 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, I am reading this thread again cos it looks like I have to toilet train my 2 rascals all over again. The pooping indoors problem resurfaced when I tried to train the puppies in a new command, DOWN.

Well, the last time I had problems with Picnic cos she was somewhat fixated on Sparky and I couldnt get her focus. I figured that was the tough part of having 2 doggies together instead of one. The good news is that she is fine now after her runaway adventures. But the problem has shifted to Sparky, who began to think he was the boss again with Picnic back and in turn started to have selective hearing.

When I tried to tighten the basic SIT and COME and also introduce DOWN, Sparky was very resistant and even refused to respond. He had a lot of difficulty submitting to lie DOWN on command. His toilet training fell apart and he started to poop indoors at odd times. Maybe partly in defiance but I suspect also in response to the stress of the new command and tighter training.

The doggies have shaped up on the commands including DOWN after 2 weeks. But it looks like I have to redo their toilet training. I have more choices now since they are older, 11 months now. Thinking of giving them one meal a day so now feeding 3/4 morning and 1/4 evening again. Considering water restriction at night. And will use the crate if there is little progress. Wish me luck. Best regards,J

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jun 16, 2004, 7:37 PM

Post #40 of 56 (1734 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi ya ...

Yeah ... agree ... Probably good time to try going one meal a day ... And I don't think you will have much trouble re-establishing the poop routine ...

Suspect you are right ... when dogs have been trained to poop outdoors ... their sudden decision to do business in-doors is often a sign of some protest or rebellion ... *laughs* ... Substitute for carrying a banner and marching down the High Street ...

If you find Sparky rebelling against new commands ... maybe you can try the clicker method ... very fast ... very easy ... and will remove training rebellion because it's not even like training to the dog ...

All the best ...

Cheers Smile

jaytan
Canine Addict

Jun 16, 2004, 10:09 PM

Post #41 of 56 (1730 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi Surchinmy, nice to read your postings again.

Yeah, this time around the problem is mainly behaviorial. The puppies are much older now and I can be confident that they are old enough to comfortably hold till walkies time. I hope you are right that it will be easier now. At the moment the results are still volatile - ok for 3 days then poop indoors twice a day then ok a day then not ok....

Sparky is ok with the new command now. Sometimes he rolls over in submission when asked to DOWN, so that gives me a clue how he perceives it. After a test of wills he has come to terms who the alpha is and it is not him, hehehe. I had to consistently correct him sternly when he ignored me.

The last time you mentioned that the main meal in the morning would have gone through their digestive system by the evening. So far it seems like they poop the breakfast the next morning. Would it then be better to have the main meal in the evening so they dont have so much to poop in the morning where I am struggling at? Best regards,J

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jun 17, 2004, 12:30 AM

Post #42 of 56 (1725 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

... It's once again mad work-wise ... so not much time to post ...

" ... The last time you mentioned that the main meal in the morning would have gone through their digestive system by the evening. So far it seems like they poop the breakfast the next morning. Would it then be better to have the main meal in the evening so they dont have so much to poop in the morning where I am struggling at? ..."

You can try evening feed ...

But I would suspect - even if you fed in the evening ... the morning poop is still gonna be the main poop ...

We have tried both morning and evening feeds ... but regardless, the dogs always seem to have poop for the morning ... like they store it or something ... Tongue

Cheers ...

jaytan
Canine Addict

Jun 17, 2004, 6:18 AM

Post #43 of 56 (1723 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi Surchinmy, thanks for replying despite being busy.

I think I will try feeding a single meal in the evening. Nothing to lose in poop experiments, hahaha. Best regards,J

jaytan
Canine Addict

Jun 21, 2004, 10:25 PM

Post #44 of 56 (1712 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy, glad to report success as you anticipated - 6 days without accident with most days like clockwork. I would consider the case closed, for now at least, hahaha. Main meal in the evening and water restriction at night, did the trick.

I wonder whether there is going to be a pooping problem everytime I teach the doggies a new command. I think I need to strengthen their recall and at least progress to the STAY command. But, I have to admit that the battle of wills and indoor pooping protests, can be nerve wrecking. Anyway, I will enjoy the peace for a while before training further. Thanks for your ideas, feedback and support. Best regards,J

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jun 22, 2004, 2:24 AM

Post #45 of 56 (1706 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi ...

Good news ... glad all is back to normal again ...

Somehow I don't think the disruption to the pee/poop routine is going to happen again when you teach your next new command ... I suspect, the situation was more an issue of getting the dogs "re-settled" with the return of the your Beagle ...

If at all - (I suspect) the teaching of the new command was only a trigger that set of a chain of events and not the real cause ...

Now that everything is "re-settled" and the doggies have identified their places again ... I would be most surprised if the pee/poop routine is disturbed when you start teaching/reinforcing recall or teaching stay ...

Would be great if you keep me posted and see if my guess is correct ...

Cheers Smile

wong_fui
Novice

Jun 22, 2004, 2:55 AM

Post #46 of 56 (1704 views)
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Re: [jaytan] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

hello,

I must give total admiration to jaytan for having two beagles.they are so adorable.Hows jaytan experience anyway in upkeeping them especially with their "destructive" behavior.

My 'lola' is good so far.Occassional 'destructive' problem.Anymore two or even three beagle owner out there???Pls share....luv to hear frm you guys.......

I live in KL bkt.bintang area,the most i can do taking lola for a walk around bkt.ceylon area which is nice and comfortable walk but is there any other park i could go??Seems that dog friendly place in kl is very very restricted.U guys agree????,especially open parks.

I think people tend to forbids dog in a particular area purely because of wee wee and poo poo problem.What if they are well train or the owner is very responsible?

And also with the contructions of excessive condominiums and apartments in KL against the no. of pet shops booming in kl,how long more will they forbids pets in these places?Any action frm MKA about this issue.....maybe to allow certain breeds? Smile

a_evie
Doggyman

Jun 22, 2004, 10:17 AM

Post #47 of 56 (1701 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

back to the topic of training 2 behaviors at once....how does it work that when shalom is caught red handed with someone's socks in her mouth...and at the command of sit and stay...the socks will drop and she turnms her head away albeit still in her sit and stay position. am worried that i am teaching her wrongly somewhere.

a little update..she ahs been good so far..no poo nipping or eating. have changed her meal to a larger portion for breakfast and a mini one for dinner...and this is resulting is morning poos unless we give her fish..of which she eliminates almost within 10 minutes of the meal.

surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jun 22, 2004, 7:29 PM

Post #48 of 56 (1698 views)
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Re: [a_evie] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi ...

Don't think its about training 2 behaviours at once in Shalom's case ...

The important thing is to get her to understand is that biting socks is a No No! ...

(A) Observe Shalom (you can actually lay down an old sock for this) ... and when Shalom heads for the sock ... just BEFORE she bites the sock ... You give a low and growly (as loud as necessary) NOOOOOOO!!!!! ...

If you give the NOOOO correctly, Shalom should back off the sock ... Once she backs off the sock - you wait a moment ... then give her recall command ... when she comes to you ... you praise & treat ...

(B) For the situation where Shalom already has sock or other forbidden object in mouth ... you GO to her ... and hold the object - and give the command LET GO ... Once she lets go of the object - praise & treat ... For this one, you have to make sure your command is obeyed, and the sock must be either released by Shalom or you must take it away from her - it can be a contest of wills.

If Shalom does not let go with first command - then the next LET GO must be Low & Growly ... and if even that doesn't work, then open her mouth and take sock a way ... And then NO treat & NO praise ... ignore her for the next 15minutes, to show that you are not happy ...

Cheers Smile

a_evie
Doggyman

Jun 23, 2004, 7:06 PM

Post #49 of 56 (1684 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

am actually using the 2 scenarios that you have given...only thing is that some days she gets so stubborn and would take something like 2 or 3 steps backwards before releasing the socks.

but will run thru the old socks with her the next few days on a daily basis....then see how she goes.

how's the new pups at the pj home?

jaytan
Canine Addict

Jun 25, 2004, 6:22 AM

Post #50 of 56 (1666 views)
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Re: [wong_fui] Train 2 behaviours at once ... ??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi, whatever made me think that 2 Beagles would be easier than 1, hahaha. Actually there are braver people on the forum, some with a dozen doggies, phew. Glad to hear that Lola has been good. You must spend lots of time with Lola since Beagles only turn destructive when left alone. At least that is the way with mine. They are angels in my company. Best regards,J

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